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10:32PM Jul-16-11
| katydid
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Post edited 10:42PM – Jul-16-11 by katydid
About "buckeye" — bear with me, because this is a long speculation –
I've never heard this slang or seen this little ritual trick, but I mostly grew up in Virginia & Martha's mention about an old use for the term that meant second-rate triggered an idea. These are the elements of it:
Word Detective says, "Apparently the buckeye tree was considered useless and annoying by early settlers, and as of the mid-19th century the adjective "buckeye" (as in "buckeye lawyer") was synonymous with "second-rate" or "incompetent."
Cassell's (2005) Dictionary of Slang adds the notion of a rustic country person as well as the definition of Buck-eyed: adj. [mid-19thc+] (US Black) having eyes considered out of the ordinary, cross-eyed, squinting, protruding, etc. [SE buck, to project].
I don't know if this is coincidence or confluence, but given the fact that these two slang terms come from the same era, I can't help but think that they might be related or perhaps co-evolved with each other. Not quite sure what "SE buck, to project" refers to, except that SE means "standard English." At any rate, we're getting closer to a connection between someone with funny eyes and an incompetent rustic country person who could be easily fooled.
It may be too much of a leap to make, but all of this made me think of my studies on 'poor white trash' in graduate school, reading the passionate frustration with which 19th c. scholars described poor whites in the South (who were mostly the descendants of poor Scots-Irish & English prisoners whose greatest crime was usually poverty) as lazy, bony, sallow, lank-haired, with misshapen heads, dull sunken eyes, "awkward manners, and a natural stupidity or dullness of intellect that almost surpasses belief" (D.R. Hundley, Social Relations in Our Southern States, 264.). Growing up in the South, we all know about this stuff but are too polite to talk about it much these days. It's the Deliverance stuff. But, as it turns out, there was some science to the story.
At the turn of the last century, hookworm disease was discovered in epidemic proportions in this population and a campaign set out to erradicate it. Most people in that social class didn't wear shoes, walked in feces-contaminated soil (didn't have outhouses, etc.), and caught the worm through breaks in the skin — hookworm only grows in tropical and subtropical soil, thus its presence in the South. Then they craved dirt because of the hookworms (and earned another nickname: clay-eaters) & re-infected themselves — a vicious cycle. Despite the fact that severe hookworm infection causes mental retardation when acquired in infancy, as well as severe anemia (sallow, lazy, bony) & many of the other physical symptoms observed by Hundly & others, the campaign to transform poor whites into model citizens by treating hookworm disease didn't work…because its true cause was poverty. Turns out the healthy immune system (made so by good diet & the other hallmarks of a good standard of living) can either keep hookworm at bay or eliminate it. In the end, it took longer to bring about the social change that was needed to end that depth of poverty.
Anyway, this is all gross and to say that maybe "buckeye" is a reference to this throw-away class of people that were seen as stupid and ignorant and funny-eyed due to malnutrition and the maladies of poverty.
I don't think it's the "my eye" interpretation, because, as someone else pointed out, that has the opposite meaning: "I see you, I see through your game."
And buckeye could be some other reference altogether! This was just what jumped to my mind.
Thanks. I LOVE this show!
**ps: The symptoms of drooping, sunken or yellow eyes may have been the hallmark chosen and codified by this slang ritual — that, actually, now that I think of it, is starting to ring a bell. Not in relation to pulling someone's leg and not with the word "buckeye," but pulling the lower lid down to indicate idiocy, backwardness, etc. I'd have to have to ask old-timers to be sure.
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5:08PM Jul-26-11
| Lee
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Heimhenge said:
I too knew the term "velocipede" but thought it referred only to those older style bicycles that had a huge front wheel and small back wheel. But at least according to Wiki, it is indeed an "umbrella" term for any human powered vehicle. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocipede.
Curious though, in that Wiki article, all but one of the sample photos show that older style bicycle as examples.
I first encountered velocipede in Wodehouse years ago. I would have assumed that he was referring to one of those 19th-century contraptions.
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4:57AM Jul-27-11
| Glenn
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As a schoolboy in France in the 70s, I encountered the term used for bike: vélo. That led me to discover the complete form of the French word was vélocipède. That in turn led me to discover the unfamiliar word in English, velocipede.
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9:30PM Jul-27-11
| Theowyn
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Post edited 9:32PM – Jul-27-11 by Theowyn
imajoebob said:
I'm sorry, but allowing people to make up foreign words is simply not acceptable to me. When someone pronouncing forte says "for-TAY," they are not just employing the wrong language of the chosen word, they aren't even using a real word! … But at the most basic, use of the French 'forte" is not a substitution for a missing English word or phrase; it is an idiom used for specific meaning and emphasis. My strengths may include maths, reaching items on high shelves, and mowing the lawn. But arguing is my forte.
I agree entirely. ForTAY is wrong on every level.
Bike is already loaded enough in that it refers to both bicycles and motorcycles. Please, let's not start adding unicycles and tricycles as well! By the way, does anyone know why tricycle is pronounced with a short 'i' instead of the long 'i' used in all the other 'cycles'?
Re Between and Among: I am staunchly opposed to using these interchageably. Between implies two whereas among can mean any number more than two. Using one to mean the other is confusing – at least to me – and that surely is not our purpose.
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10:37PM Jul-27-11
| Lee
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Theowyn said:
Bike is already loaded enough in that it refers to both bicycles and motorcycles. Please, let's not start adding unicycles and tricycles as well! By the way, does anyone know why tricycle is pronounced with a short 'i' instead of the long 'i' used in all the other 'cycles'?
Er, you pronounce tricycle with a short 'i'? I've never heard it pronounced that way. Furthermore, I've never heard unicycle pronounced with a long 'i'. (I suppose this could be regional. I've lived all my life in California; I grew up in SoCal, and presently live in the Bay Area.)
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2:34AM Jul-28-11
| tromboniator
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First half of my life (so far) in New York (State), second half in Alaska: I've never heard anyone, anywhere, even in jest, use a short i in tricycle, nor a long i in unicycle. What baffles me is why the y in bicycle and tricycle is pronounced like a short i, but in unicycle and motorcycle it's a long one.
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5:10AM Jul-28-11
| Glenn
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My guess about the long and short y in cycle has to do with syllabic stress. In the historical versions where the stress immediately precedes the y, there would be a push to shorten the y vowel. When the preceding stress is more distant, then the y receives secondary stress.
BI-cy-cle
TRI-cy-cle
MO-tor-CY-cle
U-ni-CY-cle
EX-er-CY-cle
GI-ga-CY-cle
HE-mi-CY-cle
re-CY-cle
A-qua-CY-cle
HY-dro-CY-cle
However, as far as newly formed compound words are concerned, I suspect we would treat the cycle part as a separate word, and employ a fixed stress on the y, regardless of preceding stress patterns. Batman might ride a Batcycle, pronounced BAT-CY-cle, and not a BAT-cy-cle, which sounds like a frozen bat, or the result of a successful attack by Mr. Freeze.
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8:30AM Jul-28-11
| Theowyn
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Post edited 8:32AM – Jul-28-11 by Theowyn
Lee and Tromboniator, I meant the short 'i' sound in 'cycle' which is the common part in all these words.
Glenn, thank you for that explanation. That makes a lot of sense.
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10:46AM Jul-28-11
| Lee
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Theowyn said:
Lee and Tromboniator, I meant the short 'i' sound in 'cycle' which is the common part in all these words.
Glenn, thank you for that explanation. That makes a lot of sense.
Ah! I was wondering where you found an (actual) 'i' in motorcycle That should have clued me in to the fact that you were referring to the pronunciation of the 'y'…
Yes – thanks, Glenn!
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9:21AM Jul-29-11
| DeadBeatPope
| | Lakewood, CA | |
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Lee said:
Theowyn said:
Bike is already loaded enough in that it refers to both bicycles and motorcycles. Please, let's not start adding unicycles and tricycles as well!
DO you think bike would buckle under such duty?
I am not satisfied with the wiki definition for velocipede. If people know this word they relate it to the Penny Farthing. Here is another definition though:
Velocipede in English
tricycle; any of various types of early bicycles propelled by pedals attached to the front wheel or by the rider pushing his feet along the ground .
I say uni for unicycle. Most unicyclists do too and that won't change. I have heard it called a tricycle as often as a bike and have even heard it referred to as a unicorn.
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8:34PM Feb-25-12
| hippogriff
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Lots of topics this time.
Martha's bruising from unicycle is from staying on too long. When you lose it, bail out – safer than a bicycle as you don't have a frame to get tangled in and land on your feet. Large front wheel antique bicycle: unicycle with training wheel.
Etymologically, umbrella (little shadow) and parasol (with the sun) shield from sun, only secondarily from rain.
A fort is a military strong point; for-tay is loud. Why would one name a car "loud"? Like Nova (no go or exploding star) or Vega (brightest star in Lyre[liar]).
Dodge Ram: You have to dodge the Ram. A command, not an oxymoron. Bring back athlon (prize for athletic performance) instead of the oxymoronic athletic scholarship.
Orange: In heraldry tenné, related to tawny, before the fruit arrived.
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5:21PM Feb-26-12
| sky
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Wish the show I heard today had been updated to reflect the input of this forum… But here's my take on the eyelid pulling.
Growing up in Southern California in the '50s-'60s, it was something pretty much universal: to dismiss someone (as in to "diss" them) by pulling down on any cheek below your eye, so as to elongate the eye downward. Especially among the surf crowd, if one of us wanted to say "f*** you" to another in a semi-joking way, we'd pull down the eye. Even on other beaches we'd visit, with the locals there, the intent seemed immediately recognized.
Now how this came to be, I'd figured, was from the culture of jokes, "dirty jokes," specifically. Perhaps hard to conceive of, these days, but back then most perceived wisdom arrived via jokes. Usually from construction workers — a very large sampling, so many of us young men were divided into either construction worker-employment/mentality or else going to college, and that was a wide gulf separating us. It was an epic phenomena (to use the language of the day), a large cultural "fad," and I and other students in anthropology in universities I attended used to spot the trends that would move like waves through our culture (pre-hippie), the topics transmitted via these crude, often off-color jokes told over lunch boxes.
The relevant joke here involved a group studying ape communication, how gorillas seemed to be communicating with humans. Koko was the celebrated ape of the day and perhaps propelled the ironic veracity of the joke. Anyway this joke centered around the idea of a joke being played on the zoologists studying the apes' language, who finally learned that a gesture they thought was affectionate really meant "f you." The gesture of course was the pulling down of the eye.
There were then — and I assume it continues, somewhere in academia — people studying the influence of joke-telling among blue-collar workers. Important factors have changed in our culture since then (loss of blue-collar dominance, new modes of communication, reliance on media, less humor…), but I thought the topic was fascinating enough that others might be intrigued too.
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6:39PM Mar-01-12
| ablestmage
| | Wichita Falls, TX | |
| Member | posts 29 | |
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Darn — "neeser" beat me to it. I was going to say the Japanese have a gesture involving pulling down one lower eyelid by placing the index finger on the upper cheekbone and pulling down to expose more of the eye, often sticking out their tongue and making a nyaaaahhh sound.. but I have no idea why. I watch a lot of untranslated, unsubtitles Japanese TV and have seen this dozens of times, but never really knew the context..
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7:39AM Mar-02-12
| rosswood40
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ablestmage said:
Darn — "neeser" beat me to it. I was going to say the Japanese have a gesture involving pulling down one lower eyelid by placing the index finger on the upper cheekbone and pulling down to expose more of the eye, often sticking out their tongue and making a nyaaaahhh sound.. but I have no idea why. I watch a lot of untranslated, unsubtitles Japanese TV and have seen this dozens of times, but never really knew the context..
Don't they also say baaaka (バカ) while doing it? Sounds almost exactly like buckeye….
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8:16AM Mar-02-12
| rosswood40
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neeser said:
In Japan, kids pull an eyelid, stick their tongue out and make a 'blergh' sound, as a way to taunt somebody. I love the 'buckeye' bit though, how cool! At my job, we sometimes do it when we're in a mischievous mood.
Don't they say baaka with this?
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8:20AM Mar-02-12
| rosswood40
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MarcNaimark said:
Re "buckeye", I've posted in another thread:
The French have the same gesture, pulling down the lower eyelid with the index figure for an index. BUT it has the "opposite" meaning. It doesn't mean that the person making the gesture has tried to fool the second person, but that the person making the gesture doesn't believe something said by the second person. It's more like "yeah, right, I'll buy that" with a sarcastic tone, or "you're pulling my leg" or "stop joshing me". It corresponds to the expression "mon oeil" (my eye). The expression and the gesture can be used together or separately.
They do the same in Israel….
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7:29PM Apr-05-12
| windwardsailor
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Re: Orange. Martha, you'll find this especially interesting, if you haven't heard it yet. In Puerto Rico, the fruit has an unexpected name: china. As a student of Spanish, but not a native speaker, during an extended stay in the west of the island, I heard friends refer to the citrus fruit as una china. When I asked, they gave me an etymology of sorts, which sounds completely plausible, that the word came from the printing on the crates that originally brought the fruit to the island. I'm not sure if that usage is unique to PR, but I tend to think it is. In Cuba, for example, I didn't hear china at all, only naranja.
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9:38PM Apr-05-12
| Ron Draney
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That's interesting. Lately I've been noticing in the bilingual supermarket ads that the Spanish (of the Mexican variety, at least) name for cantaloupe corresponds to "Chinese melon".
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