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4:16AM Nov-26-07
| Grant Barrett
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This week on A Way with Words we start a brand-new season! Find out what a motorcyclist wears to keep from getting sunburned and why your little finger is called a pinkie. Plus, a recap of 2007—in limericks!
Read the original blog post and listen to this episode.
It's a brand-new season here on A Way with Words! To celebrate, Martha and Grant are noodling with anagrams—including the one in the title of this episode. Also:
A New York City schoolteacher asks, "Why do we call our little finger a pinkie?" and relates his invented etymology.
Another caller snickers over a newscaster's attempt to pronounce the word homage. Which of the six ways is best?
A Hoosier who's been hanging out on motorcycle discussion boards is curious about the origin of the term do-rag. Or is it dew-rag?
"Why is an undesirable task called a g-job?" asks a crew member on the set of the Fox Television series 24.
Martha shares a trick for remembering the answer to that perennial question: "Does a comma go inside or outside of quotation marks?"
The hosts weigh in on whether the expression "very fun" is grammatically correct.
What the heck is a podsnicker, anyway?
Puzzle-man Greg Pliska joins us for a recap of 2007—in limericks!
Is your DVD player always flashing "12:00"? A caller wonders if there's a word for a society ruled by children, something along the lines of patriarchy and matriarchy.
Also join us for another slang quiz, in which DeeDee picks "slon doon" as her favorite slang word. You can see what she's talking about in the picture below, taken by Kiwi world travelers Carol and Lawrie Chandler in Gansu Province, China.
 
You can see two other pictures of it here and here.
…
Read the original blog post.
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8:10AM Nov-26-07
| John
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Welcome back! I am so happy about your return to the airwaves that I haven't words to express my joy.
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10:29AM Nov-26-07
| martha
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Thanks very much, John! Hope you'll keep listening, and sign up for our newsletter to get the latest about future episodes!
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10:32AM Nov-26-07
| martha
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Btw, re that first call about why our little fingers are called "pinkies": We received an email from Carey Carpenter, a professor at Palomar College, who's writing what sounds like a very cool book on how different body parts got named. Lots of fun stuff (and great illustrations!) at his blog, Anatomy Word of the Day.
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12:27PM Nov-26-07
| Glenn Peters
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Glad to hear the new show! It was a lot of podfun.
I have to say that "very fun" bothers me less than "great fun". The latter just sounds so awkward and conflicts with the "a lot of fun" and "not much fun" as a quantity type concept.
Also, with all those anagrams — I saw what you did there.
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3:47PM Nov-26-07
| Glenn Peters
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Also, I feel compelled to link to this post on the old forum.
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5:58PM Nov-26-07
| Penny
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A 12-year old had given a puzzle–what 4-letter common male name can change the first letter to the next letter of the alphabet and create another 4-letter common male name.
My husband and I thought it was Mick and Nick.
Did anyone else come up with something else?
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6:33PM Nov-26-07
| martha
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greyaenigma said:
Also, I feel compelled to link to this post on the old forum.
Link away, greyaenigma. Always happy to Award Showy Wit!
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6:37PM Nov-26-07
| martha
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Penny said:
A 12-year old had given a puzzle–what 4-letter common male name can change the first letter to the next letter of the alphabet and create another 4-letter common male name.
My husband and I thought it was Mick and Nick.
Did anyone else come up with something else?
Penny, thanks for stopping by. We received several emails about this over the weekend, but I think it must have been from some other show. Does anyone know?
And given the parameters you describe, I suspect you're right. I mean, my first instinct was Brad and Crad. I like your answer better!
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7:27PM Nov-26-07
| Gerg
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I have to object to your answer to the question about periods and quotes. The story here is not so simple as you describe. In fact the "which looks prettier" is precisely the right answer but how you get from that to the various prescribed answers is a far more complex story than you implied. The history here is an interesting story about how technology has changed the way we think about writing and language.
Before technology intervened the question would never have arisen. When writing out a quotation in handwriting you would just naturally place the period the same distance as normal from the text and the quotation marks the same distance as normal from the text. Since one lies so much higher than the other there's no conflict at all.
Essentially this was a simple case of what oother languages have in quite elaborate forms of characters which are placed above or below or in various other positions relative to each other.
When the printing press was invented and typography became more stylized typographers went to quite a lot of trouble to be able to arrange characters how it was judged they looked prettiest. This included being able to overlap character pairs like VA (which probably has an unsightly river of white space running between them on your screen, for example).
It was with the invention of the typewriter that suddenly we started having to think of english as composed entirely by a single series of characters. Most typewriters were too simplistic to be able to conveniently place the quotation mark above the period.
So various style guidelines prescribed different rules based on trying to emulate as well as possible the typographic conventions which the typewriter couldn't actually mimic. Putting the period first more closely emulates the quotation marks over period because the quotation marks look less out of place being separated from the text than the period does.
Incidentally the rule you gave about non-period punctuation was wrong — at least according to the style guidelines I'm aware of (MLA and Chicago agree on this I believe). Non-period punctuation goes inside or outside the quotation marks depending on whether the punctuation would have been part of the quote. That is, for example, "Help!" she screamed.
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8:14PM Nov-26-07
| John Dalbec
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I think Martha is Word-y Spice.
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5:44AM Nov-27-07
| Grant Barrett
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Penny said:
A 12-year old had given a puzzle–what 4-letter common male name can change the first letter to the next letter of the alphabet and create another 4-letter common male name.
My husband and I thought it was Mick and Nick.
Did anyone else come up with something else?
They're not *that* common, but what about Raul and Saul?
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5:51AM Nov-27-07
| luke
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Grant Barrett said:
Penny said:
A 12-year old had given a puzzle–what 4-letter common male name can change the first letter to the next letter of the alphabet and create another 4-letter common male name.
My husband and I thought it was Mick and Nick.
Did anyone else come up with something else?
They're not *that* common, but what about Raul and Saul?
Not to mention Paul.
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5:57AM Nov-27-07
| Grant Barrett
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Paul doesn't work because the names have to begin with letters that follow each other alphabetically. Unless there are people called "Qual" that I've never heard of.
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9:10AM Nov-27-07
| Dan Dickerman
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“Why is an undesirable task called a g-job?”
I worked in Silicon Valley long-enough ago that I remember when the Internet was just a few shell utilities, but not so long that I've made much practical use of punch cards. As I tell my children: "Back when I was your age, the World Wide Web was called 'books' and when the library was closed, you might have to wait a few days or ask lots of people to research a question. It was all we had." Still, I can't recall anyone using "g-job" there in the way you describe: something that elicits an "Aw Gee" response.
However, I do recall the use of the "G" in that context to refer to "The Government," and work for the government holding a certain negative connotation. This is also seen in the phrase "Close enough for government work," used to mean "just barely good enough to qualify," and the job associated with the project would then be a "g-job."
While I'm sure there are variants of this use with very specific meaning in different areas where government contracts are common, at least in the software industry government work takes a very different path from other types of development. Many of the common commercial technology products are created through the inspiration and creativity of the engineers involved, and so much of the ongoing drive to build those products is the creation of something exciting. Government contracts, by contrast, are bid-for by the company and arrive to the engineers as a huge book of specifications — the product is built to do what that external specification says. To many, this implementation part is the "grunt work" and the architecture of the project is the "artistic/fun piece" removed from the government job.
To distill that to its more general meaning, the g-job is something uncreative that needs to get done to pay the bills, as contrasted to work you do because you enjoy it. In the same context, it implies poor workmanship: something that gets done barely to the letter of specification, but nobody's going to put any extra effort into it.
I leave it as an exercise to the reader as to how this reflects on a societal view of government.
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5:54PM Nov-27-07
| LeoKulonosen
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You might want to rethink your position on the positioning of punctuation with respect to quotes. for reference I direct you to Victor Yngve's work on the mechanical translation of language.[1][2][3][4] I took a course on COMIT from Victor in 1968. There is also something called “Regular expression”[5][6][7], which “… are used by many text editors, utilities, and programming languages to search and manipulate text based on patterns.”
In general quotes, double, single, left, and right, are used to set off a word or phrase which is to be taken as a whole. To embed anything in this offset only complicates the process of parsing.
Commas are usually used to set off elements in a list or set off parenthetical information. The only confusion occurs when you use both in the same sentence. It is preferable to have a comma before the and denoting the last element in a list. However, it is treated as white noise or confirming redundancy.
Periods are used to mark the end of a sentence, or abbreviation, or initialism.
I realize there at least three forms of language, pidgin(<1000 words), creole(~5000 words), and proper(>20,000 words)[8][9]. Pidgins are very restricted, primitive, and consistent. Creoles start developing more complex rules. Proper languages are the most rich and complex and tend to carry vestiges from their roots.
I only point this out because now that people are using code to search writings, you might want to maximize your chances of mechanical parsers getting the gist of what you are saying rather than having them “throw up their hands” and say, “I have no idea what this person is trying to say!” The person of whom you are trying to get their attention may ignore you because of your punctuation. Or worse, government spyware might incorrectly decide you are a “no-good-nik” or is it nogoodnik? .Personally it doesn't bother me how people punctuate their sentences. I like puzzles. By the way, my last name is an inter-lingual play on words. Can you figure out what it is? And it won't help you to know I'm hanging out here in Hawai‘i.
[1] http://humanities.uchicago.edu/depts/linguistics/faculty/yngve.html Victor Yngve's web page at the University of Chicago
[2] http://www.computer-dictionary-online.org/COMIT%20II.htm?q=COMIT%20II Comit II
[3] http://hopl.murdoch.edu.au/showlanguage.prx?exp=19
[4] http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=8047 The MIT Press
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_expression Wikipedia
[6] http://www.regular-expressions.info/
[7] http://regexlib.com/ How the computing community views text parsing.
[8] http://www1.harenet.ne.jp/~waring/papers/cup.html Vocabulary size.
[9] http://www.geocities.com/yvain.geo/dialects.html Dialect Map of American English.
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4:29PM Nov-28-07
| Glenn Peters
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Leo, I've tried to defend my grammar usage with logic too. Unfortunately, common usage often seems to be invincibly illogical.
(And yes, I prefer putting the punctuation in a logical place — otherwise your meaning can be lost.)
And I could take a guess on what the pun in your name would be, but right now I sem to be stuck in a Spanish gutter, and I'm kind of hoping that's not the right track.
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7:49AM Nov-29-07
| Michael Tull
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Homage
I have heard that other languages have boards of bureaucrats who control the pronunciation of their language and new words. English obviously doesn't. On your show, you often talk about the proper pronunciation of words. Is the proper pronunciation the one most often used? On your show, you discussed “homage” which can be pronounced many different ways. So how is the pronunciation determined?
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9:07AM Nov-29-07
| Grant Barrett
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Michael, in English, dictionaries are the primary resource we have for learning what is considered acceptable pronunciation. Of course, there's no single answer for some words. Dictionaries differ because they are compiled using different principles, or because they are out-dated, misguided, or mistake-ridden. In general, pronunciation is determined for dictionaries based upon how a word is most commonly spoken. They do this by collecting lots of audio of speech and analyzing it. This way of acknowledging the speech of the majority generally works well.
Where it falls down, however, is that it can still leave out large groups of people who pronounce a word a different way but yet do not constitute a majority. These groups are mainly made of dialect-speakers. Dialect pronunciations aren't wrong, they're just different. Dialects, even in the US, are largely poorly represented in dictionary pronunciations, though dictionaries usually do very well in accounting for dialects' lexical differences.
Then we have have the common misunderstandings about pronunciation, in which people (too many who are "mavens") insist that the only right way is how they say it, or how they learned it when they were in school, or how they believe it was said in the past, or how it *looks* like it should be pronounced. These four common claims are basically indefensible positions but it's very difficult to dissuade people to abandon them, generally because they have a social or cultural stake in protecting a particular kind of English that they believe to represent a higher status. They're snobs.
So, in short, as English-speakers we all decide pronunciation by consensus. It's the only way that's accurate.
For a good summary of how we judge others by how they speak, and why many of our commonly held beliefs about accent and dialect are wrong, I highly recommend English with an Accent by Rosina Lippi-Green.
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1:43PM Nov-29-07
| Kari
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I have to disagree with you about the punctution question, too. I'll assume you are correct in your answer, since you are "the voices of God," (haha) but as far as your opinions on what looks right go, I disagree. Do you honestly think it looks good to end a sentence "like this"? To me it looks like you added an extra book on the wrong side of the bookend!
By the way, I am so glad my favorite radio show is back on the air!
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5:22PM Nov-29-07
| LeoKulonosen
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greyaenigma said:
Leo, I've tried to defend my grammar usage with logic too. Unfortunately, common usage often seems to be invincibly illogical.
(And yes, I prefer putting the punctuation in a logical place — otherwise your meaning can be lost.)
And I could take a guess on what the pun in your name would be, but right now I sem to be stuck in a Spanish gutter, and I'm kind of hoping that's not the right track.
I don't know if logic has anything to do with it. It is just that it is easier to get a satisfactory result some ways rather than others. For example, putting your socks on before you put on your shoes. But here in Hawaii, lots of people don't wear shoes, so it doesn't matter!
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4:45AM Nov-30-07
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Welcome back!
I was listening to your podcast this morning on my way in from work, and as soon as I heard the beginning of the question on a g-job, I immediately thought "grunt." Grunt work is something no one wants to do — the clean up, the set up, the errand-running, etc. In an office, a grunt job would be filing or data entry — the work not done by the higher-ups.
I can't give you any sources, or explain how I know this — so you'll have to take it or leave it as you will.
By the way, I love your show. I'm an English teacher, and I learn so much (and feel vindicated quite often). Unfortunately, when I mention your show to my college students (I also teach high school), their eyes glaze over. How do we get them interested and excited about words?
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5:03AM Nov-30-07
| Grant Barrett
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ckc said:
Unfortunately, when I mention your show to my college students (I also teach high school), their eyes glaze over. How do we get them interested and excited about words?
CKC, don't try much! Seriously. It's like trying to convince someone that your favorite band should be their favorite band, too. It almost never works and all you've managed to do is to set the bar much higher. After the hype, they'll be expecting fireworks, sacks of gold, and hotties lined up at the door.
The tactic I usually recommend I call by the innocuous name of "availability." It involves making sure that you include non-study, not-for-credit freebie reading material in your syllabus. In packets, throw in a word origin story that's related to the subject-matter, but don't make it testable must-know material. If you have an online area for your class, include regular links to interesting news articles or blog entries. Make your favorite books available for borrowing.
Then remember that you're not going to convince most students that language is really interesting and worth making into a hobby. Most of your books will be unborrowed. Many of the online posts will be unremarked upon. Much of the freebie reading material will not come up in conversation. I don't think you can get *everybody* interested in any one topic. But there will be a few students you'll connect with over language and words, and that'll be a pretty good result. When you find the few interested students, nurture their interest further by directing them to brilliant writing, reliable reference works, and the least-traveled corners of language trades.
Good luck!
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6:39AM Nov-30-07
| Garage
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Your 'podsnicker' sounds like a candy bar that plays mp3s. The first alternative I came up with was "ilaugh." But that made sense. So, if we must use 'pod' I would prefer "podchortle" or "podsnort."
Another question about punctuation placement: if you single quote a word at the end of a quote it would look like this: "She said she was 'busy.'" Right?
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8:00AM Nov-30-07
| Grant Barrett
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Garage said:
Another question about punctuation placement: if you single quote a word at the end of a quote it would look like this: “She said she was ‘busy.'” Right?
Yes.
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2:24PM Nov-30-07
| LeoKulonosen
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Grant Barrett said:
Garage said:
Another question about punctuation placement: if you single quote a word at the end of a quote it would look like this: “She said she was ‘busy.'” Right?
Yes.
That is what Martha seems to propose.
I say it would be:
“She said she was ‘busy'.”
This implies she was re-defining what busy means.
This helps smoke out prevaricators like our 'beloved' President and his minions.
The situation is most valuable in short text where it might not be clear that I am using the word beloved in a sarcastic sense.
English syntax tends to force such words to occur in positions other than the last word in a sentence so it is not very common. I guess your example is a good one. I can't think of any excuse for putting the period inside the single quote other than it will "keep the tiny period warm".
Here, I claim that the period belongs to my words and that what is between the quotes is incomplete but exactly as originally stated. I am trying to help the nit picker by signaling that the partial quote might be out of context. But, of course, 'We' know better.
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1:39PM Dec-01-07
| Allan Salkin
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I'd like to echo the earlier comment about "G-job" being derived from the world of vendors with government contracts. The term implies, as observed earlier, having to comply with a set of standards in government work that might be lower than would be required in a more competitive commercial environment.
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5:48PM Dec-02-07
| hollidayp1
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About the subject of:
“Why is an undesirable task called a g-job?”
There seems to be a variety of meanings for "G-Job" but I think that the expansion is meant to be "Government Job" in most cases.
I worked as a contractor on many military and government projects and when government projects had “deep pockets,” there were always more workers than needed on a job. Many workers had lots of time on their hands and so would pursue their own personal projects or fabricate things related to their particular area of expertise (electronics for example). When anyone referred to these projects it was called a “G Job” which was short for “Government Job”, a sort of cross between a cynical remark and a code word (for those who didn't know any better (such as a new “green” boss or a family member or friend). I suspect that this phrase was more common in the 50's to 70's when a lot of government money was available and so has fallen into disuse or forgotten by the younger generation.
I have never heard "G Job" used in a manner such as "Good enough for government work" although it may have evolved this way in some environments.
Paul Holliday 071202-5
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1:18PM Dec-03-07
| Mike
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The mens' names puzzle came from NPR's Weekend Edition Sunday Puzzle for November 25.
I am enjoying the new season. Martha and Grant seem to be a bit more playful.
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6:17PM Dec-08-07
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Re: The government of children
When I heard your listener talking about a word for the situation when children are in charge, I thought immediately about "paedocracy", or "pedocracy", take your pick. I was surprised, being a non-native speaker of English, when I checked and found that it does not really function in English apart from such sites as "The Phrontistery" http://phrontistery.info/p.html . It does function in Polish, mostly in a derogative sense, for instance when the former (thank God) Minister of Education announced "Democracy in schools is paedocracy" (which was basically his version of the saying "Children should be seen and not heard").
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7:10PM Dec-08-07
| martha
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Thanks, Mike! I think you're right that we're more playful this season. We were a brand-new radio team last season, but we've gotten to know each other better over the last few months. And as you might suspect, to know Grant is to love him. (That is, when you're not giving him noogies for the way he misspells the word "website.")
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7:11PM Dec-08-07
| martha
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Thanks for that insight, Monika. What is the Polish sentence, exactly?
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1:37PM Dec-17-07
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You mean how it looks in Polish? "Demokracja w szkole to pajdokracja" (yes, we do polonize our Greek and "j" is our way of spelling long i, as in "York").
Sorry about the late answer and Merry Christmas!
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9:04PM Jan-08-08
| strehlow
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Monika said:
When I heard your listener talking about a word for the situation when children are in charge, I thought immediately about “paedocracy”, or “pedocracy”, take your pick.
I (almost) second this. "pediarchy" was my first thought. This is what I would call the rule of Tutankamon.
Edit: I often get confused differentiating "pedo" and "pedi". Would a pediarchy be a society ruled by children, or feet?
Oh, regarding where I put the period with respect to the quote: I placed it outside as I am comparing the prefixes "pedo and pedi", not "pedo and pedi." which would not have a period next to them in use. That is the same logic applied to the placement of the comma in the previous sentence.
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9:13AM Jan-09-08
| dilettante
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strehlow said:
I often get confused differentiating “pedo” and “pedi”. Would a pediarchy be a society ruled by children, or feet?
Another reason why a foot doctor is a "podiatrist"!
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