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Adjective takes over
Robert
553 Posts
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1
2014/11/14 - 7:03pm

In another thread it was discussed how a verb can determine plurality, despite the noun (A hundred dollars were hanging on the tree, A hundred dollars was on the mantle.)

Now a trivial challenge: Can an adjective determine plurality, despite both noun and verb?

(Hint: it's not even uncommon, perhaps slightly poetic, slightly exclamatory.)

Guest
2
2014/11/14 - 10:31pm

There are some nouns which are the same in both the singular and plural form.  The only way to tell if they are singular or plural is by the modifier.

e.g.  A deer was grazing in the field.  Three deer were grazing in the field.

Robert
553 Posts
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3
2014/11/15 - 8:04am

Ok, number-neutral noun and verb are fine (verbs 'can' and 'will' and any in past tense, except 'be').

But give me one where noun and verb are not neutral, and yet the adjective decides despite.  Come on!

(Honest challenge, not a trick.)

Robert
553 Posts
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4
2014/11/21 - 7:04pm

7 days !  Challenge spurned or too hard?  Either way, Ah eem mearstufah !

Guest
5
2014/11/22 - 4:34am

?

Robert
553 Posts
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6
2014/11/22 - 2:20pm

That's just to render 'mystified' when I am too taken  with mystery.

Robert
553 Posts
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7
2014/12/05 - 3:41pm

No more comments, really ?    Ah eem mearstufah !

Guest
8
2014/12/06 - 8:04am

OK, I'll take a shot at this. It seems what we need for an "adjective alone" to determine plurality, is an ambiguous noun used as the subject of a sentence. Examples:

1. The aged Cubans exuded a subtle fragrance.  [with "aged" being pronounced as one syllable, implying the Cubans (cigars in this case) are a plural  form] 

2. The aged Cubans exuded a subtle fragrance.  [with "aged" pronounced as two syllables, implying the Cubans (used as a singular  collective noun) are the class of elderly people living in Cuba]

I actually started this attempt a week ago, then canceled out before posting because I wasn't sure if my answer really worked. The use of a singular or plural verb can sometimes be determined by determined by context. See this explanation:  http://dictionary.reference.com/help/faq/language/g28.html

That's my best shot. Did I solve the puzzle? If not, I think it's about time for you to post your solution.  :)

Robert
553 Posts
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9
2014/12/06 - 9:03am

Thank you, but you seem to have started another line of puzzle there.  What I had in mind was this:

There thrives many an exotic microbe in the oceanic crusts.

Many a village youth dreams of the bright lights of the city.

Told you, honest challenge, no complications.

EmmettRedd
859 Posts
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10
2014/12/06 - 11:58am

I guess I am not seeing the distinction. How is this different from the deer example? That is,

A youth dreams of the bright city lights.

Many youth dream of bright city lights.

Guest
11
2014/12/06 - 12:42pm

EmmettRedd said

A youth dreams of the bright city lights.

Many youth dream of bright city lights.

This is totally apart from the subject, but you made me think of My Cousin Vinny

Guest
12
2014/12/06 - 2:07pm

Heimhenge, I'm fascinated (and confused) by the Dictionary.com description: The team is away this weekend; they have a good chance of winning.  In the first clause, the noun is singular; in the second, the pronoun referring to it is suddenly plural, along with its corresponding verb. Logically (and I know that's a sticky place to go in discussing language) if the team wins it does so as a single entity – the individual players don't win – and so [it] should be singular. There appears to be a very porous border here between singular and plural.

Robert
553 Posts
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13
2014/12/07 - 5:31am

EmmettRedd said
 distinction. 

The construction 'Many a' heightens the plurality, like 'A great many.'

Guest
14
2014/12/07 - 8:31am

tromboniator said:
... There appears to be a very porous border here between singular and plural.

Yes, porous but "depends on context," as they say. I did not like their example of "My family are always fighting among themselves." It might be less expedient, but I'd rephrase that as "Members of my family are always fighting amongst themselves." It takes two more words, but scans so much better.

What I find curious is that when the collective noun "team" used in a singular sense, you can clearly and correctly say "The team is away this weekend."

But when the formal name (proper noun) of the team is used and is already a plural (e.g. Packers, Ravens, Bears) then one would say "The Packers are away this weekend."

And then you have the singular team names (e.g. Heat, Jazz, Magic) where one is almost forced to say "The Heat are away this weekend." lest you be interpreted as talking about the weather [of course, in print, the cap H would be a giveaway].

Curious that no current NFL team has a singular formal name, but there's plenty of examples in other sports.

EmmettRedd
859 Posts
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15
2014/12/07 - 5:16pm

Robert said

EmmettRedd said
 distinction. 

The construction 'Many a' heightens the plurality, like 'A great many.'

So, I would write:

Many a youth dreams of bright city lights.
A great many youth dream of bright city lights.

I, then, see order or proximity of the adjectives as what is controlling the singularity/plurality--not solely the power of a single adjective.

I do not know if has any relationship to this green great dragon thread or not.

Robert
553 Posts
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16
2014/12/07 - 11:53pm

EmmettRedd said  distinction.   not solely the power of a single adjective.

-------------------------

 

But it is.  Clearly the adjective 'many' makes all the difference, because if you were to subtract 'Many'  from  'Many a youth dreams,'  you get back the singular sense.  The use of the structure 'Many a' is to heighten the contrast, to make plural even more plural.

deaconB
744 Posts
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17
2014/12/08 - 4:32am

Robert said 
But it is.  Clearly the adjective 'many' makes all the difference, because if you were to subtract 'Many'  from  'Many a youth dreams,'  you get back the singular sense.  The use of the structure 'Many a' is to heighten the contrast, to make plural even more plural.

If you write "many youth", many is an adjective.  If you write "many a youth", many is a noun, with "a youth" being a prepositional phrase (with a as an unusual preposition).

English is a terribly untidy language, unlike ANSI C.

Robert
553 Posts
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18
2014/12/08 - 4:57am

The verb is conjugated to the singular noun, so obviously the noun is no part of any preposition.

 'Many' can be pronoun, but that's when followed by a plural verb, or alone as exclamation.

English has many clean cut rules, and where do the rules come from? Common sense.

deaconB
744 Posts
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19
2014/12/08 - 10:36am

The ships were all white gleaming in the overhead sun, They were moving with much speed down the Great River. And then everything erupted into chaos upon the ships of Gondor. Arrows whined and stones from Large catapults fired at the beautiful gleaming ships. Men cried out with Arrows hitting them everywhere. But the King of Gondor was able to rally his troops and many a man drew forth Bows and manned the Siege weapons and returned fire at the swarthy Men of Umbar. - J.R.R. Tolkein.

To mu ear, John's wording is correct; "many a something" is plural.  If it were singular, each would draw his bow.  It's deucedly difficult to draw forth more than one bow at a time.

Robert
553 Posts
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20
2014/12/08 - 11:18am

It is plural. That's what this thread is all about, from top.

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