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Oxford comma (or not?)
Guest
1
2014/10/08 - 3:18pm

"I ate ice cream and mashed potatoes and gravy" (gross to eat them all as one dish) vs. "I ate ice cream, mashed potatoes and gravy" (the ice cream is clearly eaten separate from the mashed potatoes and gravy).

Is this really an example of use of the Oxford comma? If not, what would you call it?

Guest
2
2014/10/08 - 6:46pm

No, that isn't an example of the Oxford comma. For that, place a comma before the conjunction:

 I ate ice cream, mashed potatoes, and gravy.

Guest
3
2014/10/08 - 11:03pm

Birchy said
"I ate ice cream and mashed potatoes and gravy" (gross to eat them all as one dish) vs. "I ate ice cream, mashed potatoes and gravy" (the ice cream is clearly eaten separate from the mashed potatoes and gravy).

Is this really an example of use of the Oxford comma? If not, what would you call it?

Peano's answer is correct, but I think you are asking a different question from what you wrote.

I think you are asking if an oxford comma would ever be acceptable in this sentence.  Even for people who believe that an oxford comma should always be used. 

The answer is that it depends on how you view mashed potatoes and gravy.  If you view it as a single dish, then a comma should never separate them.  But if you view them as two separate items, then an oxford comma would be appropriate. (If you believe oxford commas are ever appropriate.)

Please forgive me if I am assuming too much and you really meant exactly what you said.

Guest
4
2014/10/09 - 4:02am

Assuming (and I do) that mashed potatoes and gravy is consumed as a unit, I think the first example, with no commas and two ands, is the clearest expression of the meaning of the sentence. The second example, with one comma, would  either be equivalent to "I ate mashed potatoes and gravy, ice cream." or it would be the non-use of the Oxford comma in considering this to be a three-part meal, rather than two. Using the Oxford comma would clearly indicate the three-part meal. I am a strong advocate of the Oxford comma, because in my brain it almost invariably helps to clarify things, but as I interpret this sentence it is not a place to use it.

Welcome, Birchy.

Guest
5
2014/10/09 - 11:56am

tromboniator said: I am a strong advocate of the Oxford comma, because in my brain it almost invariably helps to clarify things ...

[So if "tromboniator" is at the beginning of a sentence, should I capitalize it? :) ]

I tend to default to using the Oxford comma too. In some cases it's essential to eliminate ambiguity. The classic example I often see online is the dedication:  To my parents, Ayn Rand and God. But if I spoke that dedication, knowing the meaning, I'd invariably insert a pause after "Rand" to avoid the confusion.

In some cases, it is indeed superfluous. An example of that is: I packed a tent, sleeping bag, tarp and gun.

In other cases, it can actually create ambiguity. Here's a great example: They went to Oregon with Betty, a maid, and a cook. Now that's just plain careless writing, since whatever is really meant, the sentence could be rewritten more clearly.

So even though I default to using the Oxford comma, I look at the sentence carefully, pronounce it aloud, and then decide to comma or not. If I find myself pausing when I speak the sentence I'll usually put the comma in there.

Guest
6
2014/10/09 - 3:35pm

Heimhenge said
[So if "tromboniator" is at the beginning of a sentence, should I capitalize it? :) ]

Since it's technically a proper noun I would say that the use of the lower-case t trumps the upper-case-at-the-start-of-a-sentence convention; however, I claim the right to declare proper usage of it, and I say that you should please yourself. No offense taken either way.

I packed a tent, sleeping bag, tarp and gun.

My eye sees tarp and gun as a unit, whether it makes sense or not, so I would add the comma. Not saying you're wrong, just my preference. 

They went to Oregon with Betty, a maid, and a cook.

As written, I see either two or three people; without the comma, one. Yes, it should be rewritten.

Guest
7
2014/10/10 - 6:56am

I wrote this really insightful response, bordering on brilliant. You'll have to take my word for it. Then my computer rebooted and I lost it. I don't have the energy to reproduce it.

For formal writing, I would rewrite the sentence.

For informal writing, I think "I ate ice cream and mashed potatoes and gravy" with no commas is fine. There is a natural reading provided by semantics. If you intend something other than the semantically natural reading, it is your responsibility to make that clear.

I say no commas because the structure is actually a compound of two elements, with one of the two elements again a nested compound of two elements. In conjoining two elements we don't use a comma in English. With two elements the question of a serial comma or Oxford comma does not come up, since no comma is used till you list three or more elements.

For formal writing, I think I would go with "I ate ice cream and mashed potatoes with gravy." While someone might argue there remains ambiguity, semantics clears it up. The sentence "I ate hamburger and pie" has the same opportunity for ambiguity (Was the hamburger mixed together with the pie?) but such a reading is completely unnatural due to the semantics. If you intend the dreadful mixture, it is on you to overcome the natural reading by writing something like "I ate ice cream and mashed potatoes and gravy all mixed together."

Robert
553 Posts
(Offline)
8
2014/10/11 - 6:32pm

The famous book 'Gone Girl' has this:

The phone rang.  Go took one more sip of her beer and answered, gave an eyeroll and a smile.

'Go' is a woman, no problem there.  But the structure- what do you think of it?  I think it unbelievably unbelievable.

Guest
9
2014/10/12 - 3:55am

It is very conversational and informal. If it is the voice of the narrator then I would take it to be told in the voice of a verbal storytelling.

Robert
553 Posts
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10
2014/10/19 - 4:25pm

It's a formula. 

Sharon turned to Go and nodded majestically, came over to greet us.

It's probably some kind of code or some insider joke. (Except for those 2 instances ,  the book is through and through meticulously 'standard.')

Guest
11
2014/10/20 - 2:41pm

Robert said

The phone rang.  Go took one more sip of her beer and answered, gave an eyeroll and a smile.

'Go' is a woman, no problem there.  But the structure- what do you think of it?

Not much. I wouldn't emulate it.

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