A Way with Words - Forum: Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/ Simple:Press Version 5.2.6 Jackie on Darmak and Jalad at Tanagra http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15341 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15341 Sounds like a plan!

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Sat, 25 May 2013 05:50:28 -0700
Heimhenge on Darmak and Jalad at Tanagra http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15340 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15340 Jackie: Hard to avoid spoilers when you surf as much as I do, but all I really know at present is that it's basically the same theme as Wrath of Khan. Trailers look like it's got plenty of action. Planning to see it in the next week or two, and will PM you with my comments. Don't want this thread to diverge from "language" too much more than it already has.  :)

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Fri, 24 May 2013 15:32:56 -0700
RobertB on Και νεκρός ενίκα http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15339 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15339 In  all constructions like one below , a comma inserted or omitted here or there will seem to fork the meaning this way or that, but never unequivocally without a context: 
 
'My friend, Dr Jekyll, and Mr Hyde'
 
( As is, there is no stopping it being 1, 2, or 3 persons.  And if 2, there are 2 choices for which 2. )
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Fri, 24 May 2013 00:20:07 -0700
Jackie on Darmak and Jalad at Tanagra http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15338 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15338 Heimhenge, we really need to talk after you've seen Into Darkness.  No spoilers from me--but we should compare notes.

 

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Thu, 23 May 2013 21:38:03 -0700
Heimhenge on Darmak and Jalad at Tanagra http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15337 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15337 I recall that episode, but the homage to Tamarian escaped me until you pointed it out, and I know I must have heard that line by Dr. Rasmussen.

In the recent documentary by Roddenberry's son he interviews Berman about how the series changed when he took over. No mention of the Darmok episode, but I found it interesting how Berman felt he was the "guardian of the mythology" (his words) and sought to maintain the internal consistency Roddenberry was always so adamant about. IMHO, he did a great job with that aspect of his productions. Berman's cameos by original cast members during several episodes of Next Generation did a lot for continuity. Had a hard time with the balding Patrick Stewart "replacing" Shatner, but his character quickly grew on me.

That documentary ends with an interview of J.J. Abrams on the new cast, and whether he was trying to achieve that same consistency. Roddenberry showed Abrams a video his father had made, where he talks about exactly that type of thing, admitting that if the "show must go on" he hopes future producers and writers will follow his tradition. Haven't seen Into Darkness yet, but in Star Trek (2009) I thought Abrams did an outstanding job, both in casting and plot line. Thought the choice of making "dark matter" a red liquid was a poor decision, but that was probably done by the special effects people.

Of course, since both these movies were prequels, he didn't have much choice in terms of internal consistency. The romantic involvement between Spock and Uhuru was a bit of a stretch for me, but I guess Abrams is entitled to some artistic license.

 

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Thu, 23 May 2013 11:38:19 -0700
Grant Barrett on re: The Visual Language of Comics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/re-the-visual-language-of-comics/#p15336 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/re-the-visual-language-of-comics/#p15336 Not sure how it was locked or unlocked, either! Weird.

I was indeed out of town, doing the live events in Dallas.

By the way, there is a solution to the wrong names showing when you come back to the forum and are not logged in. But it means turning off caching on the forum, which will likely slow things down. I'm looking into it further.

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Thu, 23 May 2013 06:26:17 -0700
Dick on Και νεκρός ενίκα http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15333 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15333 The original sentence from Glenn, "My mother gave me a safe, stable and loving environment", is ambiguous because loving is an adjective and it is hard to tell if safe and stable are part of a list of adjectives or part of a list of nouns, environment being the only one modified by an adjective.

The more recent sentence being discussed, "A safe, stable, and garage are all means to keep one's possessions secure", is not ambiguous at all because the list does not end with an adjective modifying a noun, it ends simply with a noun demanding that stable be a noun. If the comma after safe were gone, it would have a different meaning, "a secure animal shelter along with a garage." But the comma is there and in this case the comma makes safe a noun so there is a list of nouns.

If you moved the conjunction, and, you could also change the meaning as well as make it ambiguous. "A safe and stable garage are means to keep one's possessions secure"  No comma is called for with either meaning but it is unclear whether the sentence means two nouns with the second one being modified or a list of two modifiers in front of only one noun. (note that I removed the word all  because that would have helped clarify the sentence. Come to think of it, the word all  in the original sentence lends one to believe that there are three nouns. If you remove the comma from after safe, making only two nouns, all should have been replaced by both or else eliminated.

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Wed, 22 May 2013 19:31:28 -0700
Ron Draney on Darmak and Jalad at Tanagra http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15332 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15332 So much converted was Berman that about half a dozen episodes later, he has the time traveler Dr Rasmussen (played by Matt Frewer) notice one of the officers behaving in an especially characteristic manner, and utter the observation "Ah, Data at Penthara Four!"

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Wed, 22 May 2013 17:33:54 -0700
Heimhenge on Darmak and Jalad at Tanagra http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15331 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15331 Pleased, but not at all surprised, that there are other fans of that Star Trek episode on this forum. On further exploration of that synopsis linked to in my first post, I discovered linguistics teachers are actually using that episode in their course of study. At least this one. [Scroll down to second-last paragraph.]

Other research found that producer Rick Berman at first didn't like the script ... thought it was too esoteric with not enough action. His writers persisted, and it went on in a slightly modified form. Later, Berman was quoted as saying it was one of his favorite episodes ever.

Berman, his eyes opened!

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Wed, 22 May 2013 16:22:28 -0700
Heimhenge on Και νεκρός ενίκα http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15330 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15330

Glenn said: OK. I acknowledge an objection on the basis of ambiguity and expectation. But that is the spring from which the humor flows! Language is ambiguous.

I totally agree, and really enjoy that type of word play. I guess my bias is driven by the fact that most of my writing is technical and tries to avoid ambiguity. But I'll add one more paraprosdokian to your list, also by Groucho, and one of my all-time favorites:

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.

And here's one of my own, which is kind of a rip off or Dorothy Parker's, but I wrote it back in the 70s when I did a humor column for my college newspaper:

If you took all the people in China and laid them end to end, they'd be a helluva lot more comfortable.

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Wed, 22 May 2013 11:38:26 -0700
Glenn on Και νεκρός ενίκα http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15329 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15329 OK. I acknowledge an objection on the basis of ambiguity and expectation. But that is the spring from which the humor flows! Language is ambiguous. I admit that even in the sentence
A safe, stable, and garage are all means to keep ones possessions secure.
I expect that a reader will have to reevaluate safe and stable when the reader comes upon garage. But isn't that the fun of it? That doesn't make the sentence wrong. Isn't that a paraprosdokian? (Or a garden-path sentence?) Grant and Martha talk about this kind of word play in the episode "Too Much Sugar For a Dime." and in "Going All-City."
Too Much Sugar
Going All-City

"If I am reading this graph correctly, I'd be very surprised." Stephen Colbert
"You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have tried everything else." Winston Churchill
"On his feet he wore blisters." Aristotle
"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it." Groucho Marx
"I sleep eight hours a day and at least ten at night." Bill Hicks
"I don't belong to an organized political party. I'm a Democrat." Will Rogers
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Einstein
"Marriage is a great institution, but I'm not ready for an institution." Mae West

[edit: added the following}
As a lovely bookend to the Colbert paraprosdokian:
“If all the girls attending [the Yale prom] were laid end to end, I wouldn't be at all surprised.” Dorothy Parker, as recorded in While Rome Burns

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Wed, 22 May 2013 10:33:49 -0700
Heimhenge on Και νεκρός ενίκα http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15328 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15328 If I may be permitted to jump into this discussion, it seems to me this argument is being driven less by style, and more by the fact that "safe" and "stable"  are both nouns and adjectives. Not so with, say, "computer" "printer" "scanner."

I was taught to use the articles "a" "an" "the" (and the serial comma) as needed to remove potential ambiguities. I think that's where RobertB is coming from. If no ambiguity exists, then the punctuation advocated by Glenn works just fine. Concise and efficient writing/speaking is almost always better when it can be done without introducing ambiguities.

Have either of you read the book "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" by Lynne Truss?

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Wed, 22 May 2013 09:56:44 -0700
RobertB on Και νεκρός ενίκα http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15327 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15327 The objection comes from the context. In this case 'A safe,' sets it off for me that both words are adjective. The 2 meanings being so closed is part of it.

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Wed, 22 May 2013 09:29:19 -0700
Glenn on Και νεκρός ενίκα http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15326 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15326 I'm not sure what your objection is to stable as a noun. Stable is a perfectly good noun, with or without an article, with or without garage. Here are some sentences from the Wiki page
A stable is a building in which livestock, especially horses, are kept. ... There are many different types of stables in use today ...
Stable

Here's the entry in online Merriam-Webster, which lists the noun definitions first:
Stable

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Wed, 22 May 2013 09:22:52 -0700
RobertB on Και νεκρός ενίκα http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15325 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15325 In your example at top, no amount of commas can a noun make. 
In this example, (A safe, stable, and garage are all means to keep ones possessions secure), the nounhood is not conferred by the comma, but only helped by 'garage are all means...', albeit just barely, like an after thought, or might I say something forced-fed there just for making the argument. In fact it darn near suggests that garage is adjective.
 
The rest of the examples present no problem.  Only the one at top if you claim that comma can make noun out of adjective, except only humorously.

 

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Wed, 22 May 2013 08:00:45 -0700
Glenn on Και νεκρός ενίκα http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15324 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15324 So you would have a problem with the following sentence:
A safe, stable, and garage are all means to keep ones possessions secure.

The Corpus of Contemporary American provides lots of examples of common noun series with elisions of either the or a. To name a few of the many, many:
... a knife, fork, and spoon ...
... a man, woman, and child ...
... a ball, bat, and glove ...
... a suit, shirt, and tie ...
... a beginning, middle, and end ...
... a computer, printer, and scanner ...
... a father, mother, and daughter ...
... a bedroom, kitchen, and bathroom ...
... the blood, sweat, and tears ...
... the sights, sounds, and smells ...
... the women, infants, and children ...
... the life, death, and resurrection ...
... the mind, body and spirit ...
... the art, science, and practice ...
... the names, addresses, and phone numbers ...
... the days, weeks, and months ...

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Wed, 22 May 2013 07:28:31 -0700
RobertB on Και νεκρός ενίκα http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15323 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15323 The problem with 'a safe, stable' is not in the article being omitted;  it's the inconsistency- so much so one has to think those words must be adjective.
 
But people might say this just as often as not,  just not sounding good, not at all:
Give me a fork, knife, a plate, and napkin.
 
In any case a comma is not going to make a word.
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Wed, 22 May 2013 07:12:40 -0700
Dick on Και νεκρός ενίκα http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15322 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15322

RobertB said

 

 'a safe, stable...' will always make them look adjective.

 

If you mean a stable (n) with no danger, the comma is wrong.  If the comma is present they must be two nouns.

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Wed, 22 May 2013 07:08:39 -0700
Glenn on Και νεκρός ενίκα http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15321 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15321 Plenty of folks don't repeat the article in a series of nouns. The examples are as countless as the stars and planets. The length, breadth, and height of the universe cannot contain them.

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Wed, 22 May 2013 05:02:00 -0700
RobertB on Και νεκρός ενίκα http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15320 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/%ce%ba%ce%b1%ce%b9-%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%ba%cf%81%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bd%ce%af%ce%ba%ce%b1/#p15320 Hence the ancient adage  'It's all Greek to me.'
Still, by that tittle, do you mean to say that the comma is vindicated somehow- that when put in there it will tip the scale for noun and make those words look definitely noun?
 
Comma or no, those nouns can only be noun if appearing like this:
My mother gave me a safe, a stable and ...
My mother gave me the safe, the stable and ...
 
 'a safe, stable...' will always make them look adjective.
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Wed, 22 May 2013 00:16:48 -0700
Jackie on Darmak and Jalad at Tanagra http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15319 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15319 Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel.  Just want to say that is one of my favorite episodes.  I have nothing else to add.  Shaka, when the walls fell.

 

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Tue, 21 May 2013 20:59:40 -0700
Ron Draney on Darmak and Jalad at Tanagra http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15318 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15318 Funny you should mention that episode just now. I just picked up Douglas Hofstadter's newest book Surfaces and Essences, which is all about metaphor in language. (For those who haven't followed his career, Hofstadter is famous for his work on analogies of all kinds, from the interlinked self-references of Gödel, Escher, Bach to the giveaway title Fluid Concepts and Creative Analogies to his tour de force Le Ton beau de Marot about how difficult it is to translate the meaning of a poem along with the actual words.)

Anyway, it struck me as I was making my way through chapter two of the new book that while he's talking about words that encapsulate metaphors we no longer think of consciously until we try to explain them to someone less familiar with the language, that Darmak and Jalad would have been a great reference for him to make. Checked the index, though: nothing.

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Tue, 21 May 2013 19:15:35 -0700
Heimhenge on Darmak and Jalad at Tanagra http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15317 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15317

Glenn said: My favorite cultural reference example in English is not an idiom but would have nearly universal meaning: she was Juliet on her balcony.

Heimhenge, his eyes opened!

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Tue, 21 May 2013 19:14:52 -0700
Glenn on Darmak and Jalad at Tanagra http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15316 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15316 chengyu

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Tue, 21 May 2013 17:54:12 -0700
Glenn on Darmak and Jalad at Tanagra http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15315 Topics http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/topics/darmak-and-jalad-at-tanagra/#p15315 I loved that episode!

My favorite cultural reference example in English is not an idiom but would have nearly universal meaning: she was Juliet on her balcony.

I'm not sure about the language with the most metaphors, but Chinese has to be up there. Many common words are highly metaphoric: the word for "thing" consists of the two characters for east and west.

Chinese is loaded chock full of these infernal four-character phrases. Encountering a new one, I would recognize or look up each word, and still have no whit of an idea what it meant. One fairly easy one was "play guitar in front of a cow". Ie. "casting pearls before swine". They are loaded with cultural references.

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Tue, 21 May 2013 17:48:08 -0700