Gleam in Your Eye (episode #1621)

You’re listening to A Way with Words, the show about language and how we use it. I’m Grant Barrett.

And I’m Martha Barnette. Lately, I’ve become a connoisseur of street names.

It all started when I was driving along 54th Street here in San Diego, and I turned right, and suddenly I literally found myself on Easy Street. And I thought, gosh, somebody had fun coming up with that name, Easy Street. Since then, I’ve been collecting street names like that, and I’m hoping that we can all crowdsource some more to add to my collection.

Here are some of my favorites, and I’ve checked all of these on maps. In Casco, Maine, there’s a road called Uptha, U-P-T-H-A. So that’s Uptha Road.

Oh, terrible.

In Hemet, California, near here, there’s a street sign that says Habitur, and that, of course, is for Habitur Way.

Oh, no.

Poor Grant.

And the folks who live near Porter’s Lake, Nova Scotia, apparently ran out of ideas when it came to naming streets because there are three connecting streets next to the lake. And if you look at them on a map, you’ll see that they’re called this street, that street, and the other street.

Must be terrible due directions there.

I mean, it must be the worst.

This isn’t quite what you’re talking about, but it reminds me when the Google directions on the maps, when the robotic lady gives me directions. And she says, so we have A, B, and C streets here in San Diego. And she says, turn right on a street instead of turn right on a street. I’m like, no, robot lady, that’s not quite right. It’s not a street. It’s a street.

Well, I know there are probably fun street names where you live. Call us 877-929-9673 or send them to us in email. The address is words@waywordradio.org.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hey, my name is Ben Whiting. I’m calling from Traverse City, Michigan. And my question is this. So I was adopted back in the day. It was a closed adoption. And through the modern magic of 23andMe, my biological family found me.

Now, of course, I refer to the people that raised me as my mom and dad, but I’m starting to have a great relationship with both my biological parents. And I was wondering, is there a correct phrase to call them? For now, I’ve just been calling them bio mom and bio dad. But I don’t know if there’s actually a better phrase I could be using or if that’s just what we have, because this is a modern issue that people are dealing with now.

And Ben, how do they feel about those terms?

I mean, they don’t really know what to call themselves either. They’re both so kind. They’re not going to be presumptuous and think that I would call them mom or dad because, you know, we’ve only known each other for a couple of years. But so we’ve all just been kind of going with bio mom and bio dad at this point.

That’s interesting. We use the term bio mom in my household because my spouse was adopted as well.

Oh, cool.

Yeah, called her parents mom and dad. And later she found her biological mother and they have a great relationship. And she often visits. And when she does, you know, we say her bio mom is coming.

Have you tried any other terms like birth parent or first parent?

No, I mean, the people, because I was adopted two days after I was born. So it has always just been mom and dad for them. I mean, they raised me. I’m 40 years old now. Other than just using their names, which also feels weird for some reason, you can’t just buy a mom and buy a dad. That is the only kind of solution we have.

I had a different experience. I grew up with a stepmother, but I knew her from very young. My birth mother died a couple weeks after I was born. So for me, my stepmother, I don’t call her that. I just call her mom. She’s always been my mom. And so if I talk about my birth mother, I just say birth mother because I never have to, because she’s not around, I don’t ever have to really refer to her that often. So just birth mother kind of does the job anytime I’m filling out paperwork or, you know, referring to her indirectly.

So birth mother works, bio mom being short for biological mother. I probably would say biological mother because she only comes up in more formal situations and bio mom is a little too informal.

Right, right. Yeah, and it’s interesting because this family now, it’s like, I feel like my family is just kind of, you know, expanded. I am more of an inclusive person than an exclusive person, and everyone’s great. I feel exceptionally fortunate. And you just want to make sure everyone knows that you care about them, and you don’t want anyone to feel bad about any label you might put on them.

Right, right.

Psychologists have a reason to differentiate these when they’re talking about lineage and kinship and stuff. And so when they talk about genetic and biological parents, they use genitor for the male and genitrix for the female. That’s G-E-N-I-T-O-R and G-E-N-E-T-R-I-X.

This sounds like it could be like some Greek mythological creature or maybe a transformer from the 80s.

Genitor?

Genitor.

And then the socially recognized parents are words that you will recognize, mater and pater, M-A-T-E-R-P-A-T-E-R. So these are the ones that we recognize because we have intimate relationships with them. We grow up with them. They’re the ones who are around and that we have everyone around us knows them as our parents. But they may not genetically be our progenitors.

I’ve seen it suggested when you’re talking to a child who has been adopted saying tummy mummy, which I don’t know. Maybe. For a little child, that’s a little too cutesy. It might be a little late in the game to throw that one in the mix.

Yeah, late in the game. That’s what I’m thinking.

Thank you so much. This is great. I love the kind of, like I said, the Transformer name and the painter and that stuff. I’d never heard of those. That’s really fascinating.

Well, I’m sure we’ll find some kind of fun way to throw them in the mix at the next large family barbecue.

Well, I know that we have a lot of other people in that same situation. So I’m sure we’re going to hear from a lot of people about how they’ve solved that problem. Although I’m not sure that it’s a problem exactly. You’re just looking for something that’s more evocative of your situation.

That’s what I found. If you just address people as, hey, beautiful, everyone loves it.

There you go.

There you go. That already goes to my wife, so I can’t get you throwing that around too much.

Of course, my wife says that to our dog, so it goes.

Thanks for sharing.

Bye-bye.

All right, appreciate it. Thank you so much, Ben.

Bye-bye.

Bye.

Oh, it is a really complicated situation, right? Adoptive mother, natural mother, real mother, birth mother, bio mother, and then, of course, all the variations for father. Just a lot of different ways to go with this.

And I know that there must be other solutions that other families have come up with. We’d love to hear about them. 877-929-9673. Or tell us about it in email. The address is words@waywordradio.org.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Yes.

Hi, this is Linda DePue. I live in Blountville, Tennessee, near the Virginia border. I had a question about the use of the word ax, like A-X, I guess, instead of ask, A-S-K. I have a few times heard my elders here. I had a neighbor who was way up in her 90s in particular, and she always used the phrase ax. Can I ask you a question instead of ask? And I noticed a lot of people just seem to assume that was lack of education. But I know, and I know my neighbor didn’t go very far in school. So, you know, maybe that’s true. But she was extremely intelligent. But she grew up in an isolated farm area around here. And I just thought, well, maybe there’s more to the history of that than most people think.

Most people, when they think of ax, A-X, or A-K-S instead of A-S-K, they think of Black American English instead of White American English. And so they both stem from the same place. They both stem from these settlement patterns of Scots and Irish speakers of a variety of dialects coming to North America.

But before that, they also come from older varieties of English.

For example, in Old English, the verb was ascian, A-S-C-I-A-N.

And you can see, you can hear ask in the first part of that.

But in both Old and Middle English, and so we’re talking a very long time ago in the history of our language, there were two words, ascian and axion.

So the sounds, the S and the K, so the S and the K sounds were swapped.

This is called metathesis, and it’s really common, especially for those two sounds when they’re near each other, for them to be swapped around.

It’s very common.

So it’s the kind of thing that would just happen in the mouths of almost any speaker of English.

And it’s so common that people might not even notice.

And it’s also common enough where a word can permanently switch.

But in this case, axion and askion existed side by side for centuries.

And eventually, axe and ask existed side by side for centuries.

So when English speakers were coming over from the British Isles, there were a lot of different dialects.

There wasn’t just one dialect.

And so when they came over to North America, they brought all those varieties of English and planted them throughout North America.

Again, not just one English, but many.

And so that’s what we’re seeing here.

These patches of Appalachia where axe is spoken, where axe is said instead of ask.

Those represent those settlement areas.

And it’s the same thing for black American English.

Those represent settlement patterns, usually Scots-Irish settlements.

The important thing that you said that I really, the most important thing you said was people misattribute this to lack of education.

And it just isn’t so.

The other thing that you said that is, you talked about isolation.

This is the reason that these dialect features last.

Geographic isolation in Appalachia was a real thing for a very long time.

And so Appalachia developed and conserved its own dialect features that distinguish it in a noteworthy way from other U.S. dialects.

And even today, Appalachia has preserved a sense of culture and identity that makes it stand out in a really important way.

And there’s so much to be studied and cherished there.

And acts can be part of that if people want it to be.

Right.

Yeah, ax, you know, and it’s funny, ax is one of those dog whistle words where when someone wants to criticize someone as being unintelligent, they might imitate somebody saying it.

But as we’ve just talked about, if you’re criticizing someone for saying ask, then you’re failing to understand English language history and U.S. history and linguistics and the complex sociocultural factors that bring that simple three-letter word and its variant through the millennia.

Right?

That is so interesting.

That’s so interesting.

And people in this area, I think, have long been misunderstood and maybe undervalued.

Linda, I am so glad you asked this question.

Well, thank you for such a wonderful answer and for taking the time.

I appreciate it.

Thank you so much.

Thanks, Linda.

Bye-bye.

You can ask questions to 877-929-9673 or send us an email.

The address is words@waywordradio.org.

More about language and how we use it as A Way with Words continues.

You’re listening to A Way with Words, the show about language and how we use it.

I’m Grant Barrett.

And I’m Martha Barnette.

And look who is darkening our doorway.

No, wait, he’s lightening it up.

Hi, John.

John Chaneski, our quiz guy.

Hi, Martha.

Hi, Grant.

I’m so glad to be here in Brighton.

I hope I brighten your day, and I hope this quiz will brighten it even more.

Let’s take a look at it.

This week, it’s one of our staples.

I call it the takeoff.

It’s a variation on a National Puzzlers League puzzle type, but it’s very simple.

Take a word, take its first letter off, and a new word is left behind.

Now, I’ll read a sentence that contains clues to both the original word and the word that results when you take off its first letter.

You tell me both of them.

This week, we’re taking off the letter K from the beginning of a word, or the letter L.

We’re doing K or L from the beginning of all these words.

For example, Sir Pellinor hopped on his horse and rode off into the darkness.

The answers would be, you want to take a guess?

Knight, K-N-I-G-H-T, and knight, N-I-G-H-T.

Exactly.

Sir Pellinor is a knight, K-N-I-G-H-T, and then you remove the K and you get N-I-G-H-T, which is clued by the word darkness.

Good.

Here we go.

Again, all right.

Each of these sentences has a clue to each of the words.

You’re going to remove the K from the beginning or the L.

The atmosphere in the villain’s hidden headquarters smelled of evil.

The lair air.

Lair and air, yes.

Lair as in hidden headquarters and air as in atmosphere.

Good work.

I invented a device to spray pigment on my document, but the hose had a twist in it somewhere.

The…

No, it’s not.

Pink…

Or the kink ink.

Kink and ink.

Yes.

Nice.

I like how you guys are giving the listeners just a couple of seconds to get their answer in.

Yeah, that’s what it is.

And Martha.

Yeah, it’s not that we’re slow.

Here’s one.

This one’s a little interesting, this clue.

Earth, wind, also fire.

Earth, wind, also fire.

There’s only four words in this clue.

I know.

Two of them have to be clues to the words we’re looking for.

Right.

Earth, wind, fire.

Oh, land, and.

Land and and.

Land for earth and and for also are also for and.

Nice work.

I like that scene in Star Trek where Scotty and McCoy try to annoy the captain.

Oh, they irk Kirk.

They irk Kirk, yeah.

I forgot to mention some of these.

They might be proper nouns, yeah.

Kirk and irk.

My paramour lent me his car.

I wrecked it, and that was the last straw.

Lover and it’s over.

Lover and it’s over, unfortunately, yes.

Lover, remove the L and you get over.

Finally, I attempted

A difficult skating jump, but I guess

I’m just a clumsy oaf.

Lutz and utz?

What?

Oh, yes.

Is it Lutz and utz?

Go the other way.

Is that a word?

Klutz, Martha.

Lutz and klutz.

Yeah, you were almost there.

Yes.

It’s Lutz and klutz.

Klutz.

Ice skating to know the Lutz.

You have to oots the klutz

To get them to do a Lutz.

That was fantastic.

You guys are great. Nice job on these takeoffs.

Thank you, John. It’ll be dark in here

When you go. We appreciate your time.

We love doing quizzes with John,

And we love to do the puzzles you throw our way to.

Send him an email to words

At waywordradio.org, or

Spill him out on the telephone,

877-929-9673.

Hello, you have a way

With words. Hey, gang. It’s Dave Kieler from Virginia Beach, Virginia. Hi, Dave. What’s on

Your mind? Well, I am deeply troubled for years now about the term or the word versus.

And you would think of it traditionally as like a fight between two individuals. But when you see it

Written down in, like, say, the Supreme Court, if you look at the term, you know, Brown versus

Board of Education, it’s just done as a V. But if you look at it in the sporting world,

Like the Broncos versus the Bears, it’s VF. And so which is the correct term to write it? And

Some will even say like, you know, a Roe V Wade, but in the movies it’s Kramer versus Kramer.

And then also I have heard some people now use the term, like, I would rather take the train

Versus the car, but they will also use the phrase, I would rather take the train vice

The car.

And I’ve heard that over the past few years, and I’ve never heard it used that way before.

David, you said you were very concerned, greatly concerned, I think, with the exact words.

What makes you greatly concerned about this?

Well, at first, I thought someone was just using the term wrong when they used it as

The phrase vice.

And I thought, oh, well, maybe, you know, they were just misspeaking or not using it right.

But then I’ve heard other people who are educated people use the term vice.

And I thought, well, maybe it’s me.

Maybe I’m the problem child.

So it’s caused me to question everything I know.

We got to call it like we see it sometimes.

And then that’s what also led to the, well, you know, when you watch TV or in the sports,

So you use BF and yet whenever I write or use it in a legal document, I see B.

So I was curious, what’s the difference?

Oh, David, you are deeply troubled.

Oh, yes.

So many problems.

How can we unpack this screen rest?

Let’s dispatch the vice part first because people do use vice to mean in place of or replacing if somebody fills in for somebody else.

So, for example, somebody might say, David acted as co-host of A Way with Words, vice Martha.

And that means that you’re filling in for me.

And so you don’t hear it that often, but that’s how that’s used.

And it comes from Latin for in place of, like a vice president, for example.

Verses takes a lot more unpacking.

That is, of course, the Latin word for against.

And I’m going to try to put a positive spin on this because the fact is that there are lots of options when it comes to rendering verses on the page.

And it just depends on where you are and what the context is.

As you noted, in legal context in the United States, if you look at Supreme Court decisions, for example, it’s V period.

Brown v. Board of Education.

Roe v. Wade.

Although Black’s Law Dictionary also says that you can abbreviate it VS period if you want to.

And in less formal situations in the U.S., as you mentioned, sports, it’s often VS period.

So Mets versus Giants or San Diego Wave versus the Angel City women’s soccer team.

But then you go to England and in British English, you often leave off that period in certain legal cases.

And also, if you’re talking about sports teams there, it’s Manchester United versus Leeds.

And it’s V.S. without a period.

Although, again, another exception, if you look at the style guide for the Guardian newspaper, they say V. without a period versus.

So they say Manchester United v. Leeds with no period.

So I think the bottom line is that you don’t have to worry about being incorrect or not.

If you want to take a formal tone in your writing, use the whole word versus.

But other than that, there are a lot of variations there.

So I hope that we’ve eased your mind at least a little bit.

Indeed.

So you could say the bad news is anarchy, but the good news is there’s no wrong answer.

Well, it’s not anarchy.

It’s just competing style guides.

The language itself doesn’t demand that it be spelled out a certain way or abbreviated a certain way or punctuated a certain way.

That’s just superficial.

Maybe not anarchy versus style guides.

Well, perfect.

Now there’s some order out of the chaos.

I appreciate your time.

That’s what we’re here for, David.

Thanks, David.

The next time that you’re gravely concerned about English, give us a call.

I sure will.

Thank you much.

Okay.

Take care, David.

Bye.

And then we know that people are wondering right now, what about people using versing, versing and game playing?

Well, we’ve answered that question, and it’s on our website.

Somebody versing somebody on Xbox or PlayStation.

Yes.

Just search our website for that.

That’s waywordradio.org.

Here are a couple of more street names.

In Charlotte, North Carolina, there’s a street called Street Avenue.

Street Avenue?

Yes.

What?

Yeah, I don’t know if that’s named for a Mr. or Ms. Street,

But there’s a Street Avenue in Charlotte, North Carolina,

And in Fairbanks, Alaska, there’s a Yellow Snow Road.

I don’t want to know the story.

Oh, no.

I’m sure they knew what they were doing when they put that up.

Share your funny street names with us, 877-929-9673, or send them to us in email, words@waywordradio.org.

Hi, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, my name is Mary Grinton. I’m calling from Charlotte, North Carolina.

I’m calling about the expression, chasing flies in Egypt.

My grandparents use this expression a lot to refer to the time before you were born.

Some people say you were a twinkle in your mother’s eye.

My parents would say, oh, you know, back then you were chasing flies in Egypt.

I grew up in South Louisiana, but my grandparents grew up in Indiana, so I’m not sure where the expression came from.

But I’ve never heard anybody else use it, so I was almost convinced that they made it up.

I was wondering if you had any information.

Chasing flies in Egypt.

So they’d be talking about family memories, and you’d be like, I don’t know what you’re talking about.

They’d be like, oh, that was when you were chasing flies in Egypt before you were born.

Okay.

Yeah, I don’t know of that as a said expression.

Martha, do you?

Chasing flies in Egypt?

No, I don’t.

I do know of it.

People just talk about something of a large quantity or something abundant.

They might say, you know, there were as many of those as there were flies in Egypt.

And flies in Egypt is a reference to the Egyptian plagues.

Flies were one of the plagues brought down upon the Egyptians in the Bible.

And so you’ll frequently find that, particularly in older texts, maybe not so much anymore, talking about flies being a lot of them.

But other than that, no, but everyone knows, I think most people have heard of the twinkle in your mama or daddy’s eye.

That’s a common view.

There are many more of these.

One of my favorite ones is from a 1970 play by Alex Buzo.

The play is called The Front Room Boys, and it’s When You Were a Dirty Look.

When You Were a Dirty Look?

That’s a funny one.

That makes a little bit more sense to me.

Yeah, that’s more than a gleam in your daddy’s eye.

Right.

And there’s one that the lexicographer Jonathan Green says is Australian.

It’s when you were still running up and down your father’s backbone.

I know in Turkish there’s something like piyasada yoktan,

Which means something like you weren’t on the market yet.

Like you like weren’t out on display to pick up along with the groceries.

And you know, there’s an Italian one, which is really lovely.

You were still in the world of the moon.

Oh, yeah.

Eri ancora nel mondo della luna.

Still in the world of the moon.

I love that.

I like that one a lot.

Yeah.

Oh, and then there’s a, I think this is English, but I think you might find it in other European languages.

Your mother was still cutting bread on you, meaning I guess you were still in her protuberant belly.

So she had bread on her belly and was using it as a shelf to cut things.

Anyway, but I know we haven’t heard chasing flies in Egypt, but why not?

Why not?

Why not have that as a reference?

Yeah, add it to the list.

It’s a good one.

Or maybe somebody else has and we’ll hear about it.

Yeah, we always hear about it.

Thank you so much for sharing with us, Mary.

Thank you.

We appreciate it.

All right.

Take care now.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

Bye, Mary.

Bye-bye.

I’m hoping that we hear lots of other ones from our listeners.

You can call us at 877-929-9673.

Or if you’ve heard of Chasing Flies in Egypt, let us know by email, words@waywordradio.org.

Hello.

You have A Way with Words.

Hi, Martha.

This is Scott Proctor from Cincinnati, Ohio.

Hi, Scott.

Hi, Scott.

Welcome to the show.

Well, I work as a technical writer for a software company, and I’ve been there for about four years, and I’ve noticed a very strange usage for the word as.

And when I use as, I use it as a comparison or a substitution, like cotton is absorbent as wool or instead of while.

But this company and its 3,000 or so employees tend to use it in place of because.

So an example, because this is software, you must enter the customer’s name before you enter their code as it causes systems errors.

So when I read that, I think you add that as it’s doing the error, like while it’s doing the error.

So everyone seems to use it in place of because.

So I’ve never heard of that usage, and I appreciate you considering this.

Okay.

And you have a style guide?

Do you use one of the standard style guides?

It’s based on AP plus some Microsoft.

Do you have an internal style guide that modifies those for your own purposes?

Which I actually wrote.

You did?

Okay, gotcha.

I was just wondering if there was a reason that you were finding this is pervasive throughout the company.

Maybe a style guide rule had gone into play.

No, definitely not.

So what’s your perception of that? as Do you find that people are just doing because they’re seeing it done elsewhere in the company?

Or do you get a sense that it’s a carryover from a previous generation and it’s just kind of persisted?

It’s interesting because of all companies I’ve worked for, this is a very diverse age range.

So I have a feeling that it started with the original training documentation, because my job was to convert PDF documentation to online articles.

So what I found was, I don’t know how many authors wrote that, but it seems to mimic that type of writing.

It seems somewhat formal.

All of these questions are helping us zero in on what I think is happening here.

And that is, it’s not so much a question of formality, which you suggested.

I think it’s a question of fashion.

And using as in this way to mean because has gone out of fashion.

It’s faded from use in North American English for much of the last 80 years.

Now, it does exist, and it might be still common in some registers of British English.

But it’s just not something that’s done very often anymore.

And so that’s why it might seem unusual to you, although it is an accepted grammatical use of as.

It’s fine.

Yeah.

The reason I asked about style guides is because it’s something that you could write into the style guide and say, we don’t do this anymore.

Use because.

I already have, Grant.

Yeah.

Good for you.

So let’s explore this a little bit.

From day one.

If you look at some expert resources, I looked at Brian Garner in his latest edition of his Modern English Usage, and he quotes and agrees with Henry Fowler, the famous grammarian and usage expert, that as and because are not perfectly interchangeable.

So these two fellows say that as can be misread as meaning while, just like you said it, meaning during an ongoing action.

So, yeah, you’re seeing the symptoms here of people reaching for a higher register of language that is unnecessary because they want to.

They’re trying to find ways to elevate their language to make it seem important or significant, even if it’s not warranted by the content of it.

But, you know, as the guy who writes the style guide, also, you know, you have the opportunity to put it in bold and red ink and underline it and scar it and put it in a marquee.

Wow.

Oh, this has been a serious treat. I list you every week, and I think about things to call in for. So thanks. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Please do again sometime.

Take care of yourself.

I will.

Good luck getting the point across. Good luck with the writing.

Thank you.

All right. Take care now.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

We’d love to talk with you about the language in your workplace. Call us 877-929-9673 or send us an email. The address is words@waywordradio.org.

A Way with Words is about language seen through family, history, and culture.

Stay tuned for more.

You’re listening to A Way with Words, the show about language and how we use it.

I’m Grant Barrett.

And I’m Martha Barnette.

A mermaid is a fabulous sea creature with the body of a human and the tail of a fish.

And the linguistic roots of this word go way, way back into antiquity.

So mermaid shares a common ancestor with words like marine and maritime and even marinate.

And of course, the Spanish word for ocean, mar.

But what I didn’t know until recently is that mermaid is also a verb.

I learned that from a remarkable new documentary called Merpeople.

And it’s about people who portray mermaids both as amateurs and professionals at tourist attractions.

And you can find this on Netflix.

It’s a fascinating look at this subculture.

Half the time I watched it with my jaw on the floor, sometimes I watched it with my heart in my throat.

Because sometimes this freediving in costume is not without risk.

But what’s fascinating to watch as a language person is how slang naturally arises in that subculture.

For example, if you’re going to mermaid, you need to wear an ornate heavy tail made of latex or silicone or fabric.

And after a session in the water, when you’re wriggling out of one, you detail.

And putting on your tail is a lot of work.

And if you’re not right next to the water, then you have to have help from another person getting the whole thing on and have them carry you to the water.

And those people are called wranglers.

Now, some of these coinages are a bit self-conscious, and a lot of them involve puns, because merrs, as they call themselves, will sometimes greet each other with shallow rather than hello.

Oh, that’s terrible.

I know, it’s terrible.

And some of them take shelfies with their phones.

But I’ve since found out that my friend Whitney belongs to a pod of merr people here in San Diego.

She’s part of the Ocean Beach Pod, and she confirmed that many mermaids do greet each other with shalom.

But when I first heard this in the documentary, I thought they were saying shalom.

And I thought, well, I guess there could be Jewish mermaids, because one of the striking things about the mermaid community is that it is incredibly diverse and welcoming.

Mers come in all shapes and sizes.

They represent a variety of ethnicities, of body types, of physical abilities.

And anyway, the movie is this fascinating look at a subculture, if only to watch that new language bubbling up, as it were.

It’s called Mer People, and it’s by Oscar-winning director Cynthia Wade.

I don’t think there’s a pun intended there.

If you’ve got cool language in a community that you’re a part of, Martha and I really love to hear about it.

You can send us an email, tell us the whole story, or link to your favorite glossary, words@waywordradio.org,

Or tell us on the telephone.

877-929-9673 is toll-free in the United States and Canada.

And we have a WhatsApp number.

You can find that on our website at waywordradio.org.

Hello.

Welcome to A Way with Words.

Hello.

Hi.

Who’s this?

This is Margaret Vann in Huntsville, Alabama.

Well, hello, Margaret.

Welcome to the show.

Hey, Margaret.

What’s up?

Well, my mother had a very interesting saying that always bothered me because it didn’t make sense.

But the saying was when she was in a hurry to get something done or was trying to hurry us to get something done, she says, we’ve got to do this with a burning needle and a hot threat.

Wow. And what did you picture?

Well, it didn’t make sense to me because I thought the needle should be burning and the thread should be hot.

I mean, the other way around.

The other way, yeah.

Well, yeah, yeah.

Usually when you hear this phrase, it’s the needle that’s hot and it’s the thread that’s burning.

And often you hear it as a red hot needle in a burning thread.

This phrase has been around for quite a while.

People often use it to refer to something that looks like it’s sewn with a red hot needle and a burning thread.

You know, somebody was sewing as fast as they could and it looks slapdash and sloppy.

You know, they got it done, but it ain’t pretty.

And Margaret, you’ll enjoy this.

There’s a jaunty tune from the 1950s called A Red Hot Needle.

It’s by Bob Willis in the Texas Playboys.

Oh, shit.

Yeah, it’s really cute.

It has this refrain that goes, I’m sewing up a coat of love with a red hot needle and a burning thread.

I’m writing her a note of love with a red hot pencil and a burning lead.

They go on to say, I’m in a hurry, got to make up time.

That’s why I’m using speed.

So the idea is they’re doing something really quickly because they’re really in love.

How cool is that?

That’s really cool.

And who was the group that did that song now?

That’s Bob Willis and the Texas Playboys.

And something else I really love about this expression is that in parts of the Caribbean, the phrase hot needle burn thread describes something that’s done in haste.

And I saw one dictionary citation that goes, that wedding got to be hot needle burning thread.

And the reason is that it’s because the bride is pregnant.

Oh.

Yeah, sometimes it’s burnt thread.

So run up with hot needle and burnt thread.

It is already done.

Mother was born in Middlesbrough, Kentucky, and I think 1904.

And so I guess she heard it from her mama, who also was a Kentuckian.

But my sister and I were talking about it, and only she and I remembered it.

Well, thank you, Margaret, so much for sharing your memories of this.

Take care of yourself and thanks for calling.

Thanks, Margaret. Well, thank you. Thanks for taking my call.

Bye-bye. Take care. Bye.

Call us, 877-929-9673.

Grant, you remember our conversation about taking the number 11 bus or traveling by Pat and Charlie?

Oh, yeah, taking your Chevrolet.

These all mean walking.

Right, Chevrolet.

Right, right.

Well, that conversation prompted an email from Karen Knox, who lives in Ontario, Canada.

And she said that when she was growing up in the 1980s in Montreal, whenever she walked and took public transit anywhere, she writes,

I grew up in the 1980s in Montreal, and whenever we walked and took public transit anywhere, we said we go by BMW, bus, metro, walk.

I know there are a bunch of these, so ride Shanks Mare over to the computer.

Send us an email to words@waywordradio.org and tell us yours.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, Martha. This is Raffaella from Wasa, Wisconsin.

Hi, Raffaella. Welcome. What’s up?

What can we do for you?

Well, I was thinking about this the other day, as many subjects seem to come up.

Among family members, I’m married, so there’s the other family.

And when we speak about the foibles, the idiosyncrasies of family, I’ve wondered if there’s an unwritten rule about who gets to bring those things up because it can be sensitive.

It seems that generally one’s own family has, shall I call it, the right to bring up their own family’s oddities or funny stories or maybe even embarrassing things.

But I wonder if there’s a law about that, about who breaches the subject, or is it subject to etiquette or is that dead?

Wow. So are you talking about your spouse at these family gatherings or somebody else?

Well, it could be my spouse’s family. It could be another friend in their own family, extended family.

What do you mean by foibles and idiosyncrasies?

Are we talking about the way that they sing, or are we talking about things like not doing their fair share of work around the house?

Oh, well, that could have come up, too.

Well, you know how Uncle Bob always talks like this, or his funny manner of responding to things, or his funny things people do.

For instance, my father-in-law always says $14.5 million when he wants to talk about something that’s a large amount.

But it could be a little quirky things people do or things people say.

I don’t know if that helps you understand what I’m getting at.

Yeah, yeah, that really does.

Thank you.

Okay.

So have you been caught out by this where you were at a family gathering and you said something about someone that you’re not related to and then were made to feel uncomfortable?

Yeah, I tended do that once in a while.

Yeah.

Or maybe joined in in razzing or teasing that was already going on and yet you weren’t really welcomed as a part of that?

At times, yes.

And at times, no.

Other times, no.

It kind of depends on the person.

You eventually learn kind of where your boundaries are, shall I call it.

And that’s an important point of what you’re talking about here.

And this is a little linguistic and it is a little something else.

Okay.

The linguistic part of this is, it plugs into what are known as in-group and out-group dynamics.

And in language, this manifests by the language that we share and don’t share.

And so in a family or family groups, we have all these in-jokes, or we have the little names for things that maybe a child coined years ago and that the family shares and that only they use.

But other things belong to those in-group dynamics, too.

And these are our understanding of each other, status and hierarchy and authority and respect.

And also shared histories that no matter how well you know your spouse, you maybe don’t know everything about them.

And you might not know, even if you’ve known your in-laws 30 years, you still maybe don’t know them in the same way that the other people do.

It can seem unfair for them to exclude you but it really is completely fair at least in the power dynamics of families for them to exclude you and that’s kind of hard to accept sometimes it can be.

But at the same time when I’ve been called out I realize it’s just not my place so yeah my boundaries better sure yeah you learned that there’s acceptable and unacceptable but boy that feeling of when they finally do invite you in and make you feel as part of the family that feeling that washes over you is the most glorious thing in the world isn’t it?

It can be yeah you know there’s maybe things that I wish they they’d include me and I’d that make me part of I’ll call use your word the in group I like that but I felt like I’ve been in the out group and now I’ve been invited into that conversation or it’s just they open the conversation and you you just certain whether or not, okay, is this where I can talk or not? You just have to weigh it. And it’s often better not to and just listen.

Yeah. The talking is just one manifestation of that emotional intimacy that may include or exclude you. And whether or not you seem presumptuous isn’t up to you. It’s up to them.

No. And no matter how hard you try, you may never meet the mark that they’ve set. And that mark is so invisible, isn’t it? That mark is something you can’t see. Only they can see it.

And it’s so extremely clear to them and not to you.

Yeah, that’s well said.

Yep, exactly. That social permission is invisible until they point it out to you. And then it goes invisible again.

Right, right.

Okay.

Raffaella, thank you for broaching this topic with us. This is a really good one. And I know a lot of people have encountered this.

I think so. Thank you. That’s kind of you to say. Thanks for taking my call. Bye-bye now.

All right. Bye-bye.

We would love to hear about those difficult family conversations that you had where maybe you didn’t feel like it was your place to say something, but you did. And then something happened and maybe it was hard to get out of it. Or maybe you found a solution and you worked it out.

And those are wonderful moments and we’d love to hear about them. The hard ones, the easy ones, 877-929-9673.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, y’all.

This is Larry down in Texas.

How are y’all doing?

All right, Larry.

Welcome to the show.

What’s up, Larry?

Okay, well, I heard my grandma use this term, and then I have a cowboy friend that used this term.

And he used it in a way that I didn’t quite understand.

So maybe you could help me out a little bit.

The term is, he finished the conversation, and he said, it is saucered and blowed.

And I was trying to figure out what in the world does saucered and blowed mean.

What does it mean?

So he got to the end of a conversation. Was it about a project or something that was going on?

Yeah, we just had a conversation.

He said, okay, it’s saucered and blowed.

Okay.

And I heard a preacher one time say when he finished his sermon, it was saucered in blood.

So I’m assuming it’s something that means it’s over, but I don’t know where it came from.

But my grandmother used it, so maybe it’s an old term. I’m not sure.

Yeah, particularly in the 18th century, saucers were a lot deeper than they are now.

They were more like little bowls.

And there’s been a long tradition in Europe, in the UK with tea, and also here in the United States, particularly with coffee.

Or as my ancestors used to do because they couldn’t afford coffee, they would just do this with boiling water.

And so if you’ve poured out your coffee into the saucer and, you know, it’s spread out and it’s cooling off and then you blow on it a little bit more, it’s ready to drink.

It’s, you know, mission accomplished.

Oh, okay. So it’s kind of like a mission accomplished. It’s all over with. So let’s get on with something like that.

So you have saucered it, meaning you’re putting in the saucer, and you did blow on it, meaning you cooled it off with your own breath.

Therefore, it is finished and ready to drink.

It’s been around for a while, Larry. There’s a story that George Washington once told Thomas Jefferson that the U.S. Senate was designed to be the saucer that would cool down the hot legislation that came over from the House.

Now, that story may be apocryphal, but it’s quite an image, wouldn’t you say?

Oh, unbelievable.

Well, I sure hope the conversation cut the mustard with you folks.

It definitely did.

It sure did, yeah.

Okay.

Larry, you know what this conversation is now, don’t you?

No, ma’am, what is this? Is it all saucered and blowed?

Yes, sir.

I hope your program isn’t saucered and blowed and you just keep on going.

Okay.

Thank you so much.

All right.

Hey, y’all take care.

Thank you, bye-bye.

Martha and I love to talk to you about expressions in your life.

We like to hear what you’re reading and we like to know what you’re thinking.

Give us a call, 877-929-9673.

That’s toll free in the United States and Canada, 24 hours a day.

And no matter how you listen or where you are in the world, there are lots of ways to reach us.

You can find them all on our website at waywordradio.org/contact.

Cheryl Anderson contacted us about a phrase in a book that’s left her puzzled.

She’s reading a translation of Dostoevsky’s book, The Idiot, and she came across this sentence.

For the most part, these omniscient gentlemen are out at elbow and receive a salary of 17 rubles a month.

And she’s wondering, what does out at elbow mean?

To be out at elbow means to be ragged or in bad condition.

And the image here is literally a coat that’s worn out at the elbows.

So if you’re out at elbow, you’re not doing so well financially.

And there is another version of this to be in at elbows.

It’s not very common, but in that case, you’re well paid.

In at elbows, maybe you’ve had misfortune and then good fortune and patched them up.

Right, exactly.

We would love to hear from you.

877-929-9673 is a toll-free number in the United States and Canada.

And you can also find ways to reach us no matter where you are in the world, including WhatsApp, on our website at waywordradio.org/contact.

Our team includes senior producer Stefanie Levine, engineer and editor Tim Felten, and quiz guide John Chaneski.

We’d love to hear from you no matter where you are in the world.

Go to waywordradio.org/contact.

Subscribe to the podcast, hear hundreds of past episodes,

And get the newsletter at waywordradio.org.

Whenever you have a language story or question,

Our toll-free line is open in the U.S. and Canada,

1-877-929-9673,

Or send your thoughts to words@waywordradio.org.

A Way with Words is an independent production of Wayword, Inc.,

A nonprofit supported by listeners and organizations who are changing the way the world talks about language.

Special thanks to Michael Breslauer, Josh Eckels, Clare Grotting, Bruce Rogow, Rick Seidenwurm, and Betty Willis.

Thanks for listening. I’m Martha Barnette.

And I’m Grant Barrett. Until next time, goodbye.

Bye.