Kids Are Asking (episode #1523)

You’re listening to a special edition of A Way with Words, the show about language and how we use it.

I’m Grant Barrett.

And I’m Martha Barnette.

Today, we’re listening back to some of our favorite discussions with some of our youngest listeners.

They have a way of making you take a second look at familiar words and phrases.

Hi, who’s this?

Aya.

Aya, where are you calling from?

Virginia.

Virginia. Well, welcome to the show.

Do you have a question for us, Aya?

I wanted to know if high and dry is a good thing or a bad thing.

Is high and dry a good thing or a bad thing?

Huh.

Well, what got you two wondering about that, Aya?

Because a week ago we called one of our families and we asked if they were high and dry because there was a storm coming.

Okay.

And so you wanted to know if they were safe.

I thought it was a bad thing.

Oh.

Oh.

So what do you think high and dry means?

I think it’s a bad thing because it’s not good to leave something when you just started it.

You leave your partner high and dry.

Oh.

That is a good life lesson.

You nailed it, Aya.

It’s not good to leave people stranded, is it?

Nope.

So, Aya, the thing is that high and dry can mean a couple of different things.

It can be a good thing.

It can be a good thing if something is safe.

Like if your friends are high and dry and they’re away from the flooding, then they’re safe.

But if you’re a fish, you don’t want to be high and dry.

Or if you’re a boat that’s supposed to be in the water, but the storm throws you up on the hill far inland.

Or a mermaid.

Right, or a mermaid.

Or a mermaid, exactly.

No, she doesn’t want to be thrown into the land, right?

She would be high and dry, and that’s not where she belongs.

Yeah.

So your idea that it’s bad is sometimes true, but it’s also sometimes good.

Thank you.

Yeah, so the answer is basically that it depends on the situation.

Yeah, you always have to listen to the words around it,

The sentences that are being said near high and dry,

To really understand what someone means when they say high and dry.

Thank you.

Good.

Thank you for your call.

Thank you for talking to us, Aya.

Thank you.

You’re welcome.

Call us again sometime.

Okay. I love you guys.

I love you too. Bye-bye.

I love you too.

Take care now.

Bye.

Oh, my heart. How cute was that?

Right? How adorable.

And I think you summed it up really well, Grant, the fact that words change their meaning depending on context.

Yeah. And, you know, we also hear from teenagers whose language is just a little bit different from their parents, like in this call from 13-year-old Sophia.

Well, I have a question about this term that my sister and I use, and actually some of my friends.

Whenever we’re going to Google something, we always say, let’s search it up.

Let’s search it up on the Internet.

And my mom, who is a speech pathologist, she is always correcting us, and she’s saying, like, no, it’s not search it up.

It’s look it up.

And so we were wondering, like, is it something that just we say?

Is it wrong?

And yeah.

How long do you think you’ve been saying search it up?

Honestly, since I can remember.

Okay.

It’s what I’ve said.

And your mom, her protest is it’s not the way that she says it, so she feels like it’s wrong?

Yeah.

She says that it’s look it up or just search it, not search it up.

All right.

Well, one nice thing about this show is we have listeners from all over.

When I search all of our email or phone calls and stuff, I can find this has come up before. So

I know even without searching the whole internet that you are not alone and that other people say

Search it up too, meaning to look something up on the internet. It can sound wrong to somebody’s

Ears who’s used to phrases like look it up or hunt it up or dig it up, but it’s new. It’s a new

Language change and I congratulate you on noticing it or your mom for noticing it. And it is literally

Used by zillions of people. Zillion is a really big word. Well, that’s really, thank goodness.

But the thing is, it’s language change in motion. It is language happening right in front of us.

And it does tend to be younger people, typically under the age of, say, mid-20s. Not always,

Obviously, these are just ballpark numbers. And it definitely is on the model of look it up or

Read it up, or sorry, read up on it or hunt it up or dig it up. And there’s an interesting thing

Happening here. People are bothered, I think, most of all by the it in there. People are a little

Less bothered by search up, although that also sounds weird. But I don’t see that much difference

Between search for it on the internet or search it up on the internet. It feels like the same

Thing to me, except with one little caveat.

Sophia, I have a question for you. If you were searching for the answer in a book,

Would you still say, I’m going to search it up?

I don’t think I would. I think it depends.

You would say look it up?

Yeah, I would probably say look it up or just try to find it.

I don’t know. That’s interesting, yeah.

It is exciting to watch those subtle changes in language happening right under our feet.

We’ll be back with more calls for you in a moment, but first we need to make a request.

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You’re listening to a special edition of A Way with Words, the show about language and how we use it.

I’m Grant Barrett.

And I’m Martha Barnette.

On today’s show, we’re featuring calls from our youngest listeners.

Ben phoned us from South Dakota.

He sounded like he was traveling with his family, and he was curious about something he’d seen along the way.

Hi, this is Ben.

We’re calling you from Rapid City just outside of the Black Hills in South Dakota.

Oh, nice.

Wow.

Okay.

I just wanted to talk with you guys about sun dogs.

Sun dogs?

It’s basically just a sun, the sun, right?

And then it has a rainbow around it.

Oh, yeah.

Nice.

What got you to thinking about that?

Well, we were driving to Cincinnati on a trip.

We saw one on a freeway, so we were just thinking about it, and then we called.

And here we are. So you want to know where we get sundog and why we call that kind of glowing ring around the sun a sundog.

Yes, exactly.

Okay. I’ve got good news and I’ve got bad news. The bad news is we don’t really know why it’s called the sundog.

Oh.

There’s no really good theories. It goes back way into naval history, though.

It’s a term that’s been used by sailors for a very long time in English.

And there are other names for it, too.

Some people call it a mock sun or a weather gall, G-A-L-L,

Or here’s the fancy term for it, parheelion, which is Latin.

Parheelion.

Yeah, it means beside the sun.

And so it only happens when the sun is a certain point in the sky

And there are ice crystals at a certain altitude

So the sun can kind of bounce through them and then come to our eyes

At a certain, of course, very specific conditions.

And there’s a slang dictionary from 1890 that called it a phantasmic mirage, which I think is a great way to describe a sundog.

It goes back to at least the 17th century, so that’s hundreds of years.

And in some parts of the United States, including Illinois and Maryland, folklore tradition has it that if you see a sundog, it can tell you a little bit about the weather that’s going to come.

So, for example, on Smith Island, Maryland, some people have believed that it will bring easterly winds, cool temperatures, and fewer crabs in the crab harvest.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, it’s pretty cool, right?

So it’s kind of like an omen?

Yeah, an omen, exactly right.

In that area?

Yeah, exactly.

The only thing that I can imagine that would explain why it’s called a dog is because it goes along with the sun, you know?

Oh, like a dog follows you by and catches your heel?

Yeah, a smaller version.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maybe.

A smaller version, but nobody really knows, as Grant said.

Yeah, unfortunately, nobody really knows.

Yeah, it’s frustrating when you have to do all that research, and then you finally have to concede its origin unknown.

Yeah, that happens a lot.

But you’ve got to love all those other terms for this, parheelian, mock sun, phantasmic mirage.

And I also love the idea of Ben and his family riding along and then wondering about the origin of the word.

Yeah, a lot of kids end up calling the show after one of those family discussions around the table, don’t they? Do you remember Pearl?

Yeah, they were having that family dispute about the pronunciation of a certain savory word.

The other night at dinner, my mom was making something, and she said, I’m using turmeric, and I always heard it turmeric, so I said she was wrong, and I was wondering what it actually is. So clarify for us. Your mom says turmeric. And you say turmeric.

Turmeric. Oh, interesting.

And what was she cooking? I don’t know. It was something with, like, kale and turmeric and chickpeas.

And I wonder where she learned turmeric. Did you ask her about it?

I think she just grew up, like, talking with that word.

-huh.

And where did you learn your pronunciation?

I think probably from my dad and just, like, my friends and parents.

Okay.

-huh.

Well, Grant and I are both very interested in how your mom came up with that pronunciation, because yours is among the correct ones.

Yeah, and there are many pronunciations for the word, but turmeric isn’t one that’s recorded in any dictionary that I have.

That’s what I thought.

Yeah.

Are you, Pearl, are you saying the R there before the M when you say the word?

I’m not sure I’m hearing it.

No, I don’t think so. I think I’m just saying turmeric.

Turmeric, because there is an R there that many people pronounce.

Yeah, like turmeric.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And if I’m looking at my dictionaries here, I count at least six pronunciations of this word.

And are any of them tumeric?

No, none of them tumeric.

That’s why we were wondering about how your mom learned that pronunciation, because she’s putting the stress on the second syllable, and we just don’t see that in any of the dictionaries.

Yeah, usually people say it with the stress on the very first syllable, like you’re saying it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and sometimes that happens when people learn words from books rather than hearing them from other people, which it sounds like you did, hearing it from your dad and from your friends.

Yeah.

Or maybe cooking shows. Do you watch cooking shows?

Yeah, sometimes.

Oh, you do?

And I started asking people after my mom said that, how do you say it? And all of them said turmeric.

Turmeric.

I like that, a little field work.

I appreciate that you’re going out there and being a scientist to figure this out.

Yeah, well done, Pearl.

So how are you going to talk with your mom about this?

I think I’m just going to ask her where she has ever heard that.

There we go.

That’s the right attitude. Instead of criticizing her, you’re going to look for more information.

I like that.

Mm—

Kale, chickpeas, and turmeric? Sounds healthy.

And speaking of nutritional value.

I knew that’s where you were going to go with this.

Yep, busted.

So if you get intellectual sustenance from this show, please take a moment to go to our website and make a gift that will help us keep producing more episodes.

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You’re listening to a special edition of A Way with Words, the show about language and how we use it.

I’m Grant Barrett.

And I’m Martha Barnette.

Today we’re listening back to serious questions from young voices.

We heard from Clementine in Omaha, Nebraska. She’d overheard her grandmother use a phrase, and it just didn’t make sense to her given her own experience.

Well, the other day I heard my grandma talking about a place and she said it was run of the mill. And I thought, I don’t know why run of the mill means ordinary and boring because my parents have this friend and he owns a mill. And I, when I was little, I used to run around in it and it was really fun. What kind of mill is it? A flour mill.

Clementine, that is an excellent question. Well, this term goes back to the world of manufacturing. You know, there are lots of different kinds of mills. For example, if you have a lumber mill and you’re cutting up, say, 10,000 planks of wood, you’re going to have some of those planks of wood that don’t turn out as well as the other ones. Maybe they’re discolored or they’re broken or the wood had a hole in it. And so out of that group of products, you’ve got the whole group, the rejects and the good ones. It hasn’t been inspected yet. And you refer to that as run of the mill. So run of the mill refers to products that haven’t been gone through to inspect their quality. Or maybe like from a textile mill that’s making, say, sheets and pillowcases. Maybe you’re going to have some stitching that’s off or they just cut the cloth wrong. And that whole big group of sheets and pillowcases before you start sorting them out and finding the ones that are bad, that’s run of the mill. It’s the whole run.

Yeah. So a run here is any group or set of items that are manufactured together, things that are made all of the same kind. So that’s one run and you might have another run on another day.

Yeah. Or you might talk about a run of newspapers being printed up one day or a run of books being published. Or a run of bad luck where you have a lot of bad luck in a row.

Yeah, that’s a good point, Grant. And so it’s not really the same as running around a mill like you were doing. Does that make sense?

Okay. Yeah. Well, Clementine, I’m super happy that you called us to ask about your language question. Do me a favor and call us any time you have another language question, all right?

Okay. Thank you.

You’re welcome. Bye-bye.

Bye-bye. Bye.

Oh, how sweet was that?

I know, right? Well, sometimes when kids call with a simple question about a word origin, they get an answer that’s nothing less than epic.

Hi, this is Lael Taylor from Harlan, Iowa.

Well, hello, Lael.

How are you?

Welcome to the show.

One day, my family and I were baking, and we were using cream of tartar. And this, for some reason, reminded me of tartar sauce. And so we looked up the definition of tartar, like your teeth, and tartar sauce, like leftovers of wine. And then we looked up the definition of tartar sauce, and it had nothing to do with either of those things. So I was wondering how tartar sauce got its name.

Oh, wow, yes. This is a great question.

It’s a great question, and you sound like you have a fun family.

Yeah, we do.

And you did a lot of your own research, so bravo for that. We appreciate that.

Mm—

All right, you’re right. There are two different words that sound a lot alike here, that each of them gave a word that looks like tartar to different parts of the English language.

So you mentioned something about wine, and that’s the one I want to start with. When we use cream of tartar to cook with, it’s actually a white residue left over from winemaking that comes from the inside of the casks. And somehow somebody figured that you could use it for baking. That word tartar, T-A-R-T-A-R, comes from a Latin word tartarum. And it is unrelated to some of the other tartars that we’re talking about. It is also, however, the one for tartar on your teeth because it looks a lot like that white substance you get when you haven’t brushed in a while, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, so the cream of tartar and the tartar on your teeth are related, and they go back to a Latin word, tartarum, and it means the white crust that forms during the winemaking process inside the cask.

All right, and then we have other tartars happening here.

And we have to start with the people known as the Tartars, T-A-R-T-A-R, and sometimes called the Tatters without the first R.

And they were a huge 13th century army of Mongols and Turkic people who were led most famously by Genghis Khan, if you know who he is.

Not really.

He was the warrior to end all warriors.

He was one of the most savage leaders of military that has ever existed on this earth, according to legend anyway.

So a really big deal.

And so this army, get this, they would take meat and put it under their saddles while riding their horses all day.

And the meat would be cooked through friction and the saltiness of the horse’s sweat.

Really?

Kind of cured and cooked at the same time.

Yeah.

And they would eat it.

So it was still technically raw, but it was somehow, I don’t know.

This is what they did.

All of the resources they have say that this happened.

I would like to know how they know that the Tartars put raw meat under the saddle of their horses and then ate it after a while.

In any case, so that became a dish known as steak tartare.

Have you ever heard of this?

Kind of.

Well, the Germans in Hamburg, Germany, in the medieval times, later created a raw meat dish that we call steak tartare.

And they mimicked this dish from the Tartars, the Mongols and the Turkic people.

And they added some seasoning to it.

So they took the raw meat and they added mayonnaise and pickles and onions and olives and capers and some herbs.

And this kind of spice that they added to it is what we now call tartar sauce.

So it’s kind of like what you add to steak tartare without the steak.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, so the tartar sauce mimics the spices and flavors that were added to steak tartare originally in the medieval times.

How about that?

That’s a really, really long history.

And can I give you one more thing, Leo?

Yeah.

Ultimately, the same raw meat dish made in Hamburg, Germany, became what we know as hamburgers today.

Later, of course, shaped into patties and cooked, but still, ultimately, its origins go back to medieval times with these Germans mimicking this tartar dish.

Whoa.

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You’re listening to a special edition of A Way with Words, the show about language and how we use it.

I’m Martha Barnette.

And I’m Grant Barrett.

Today we’re revisiting thoughtful questions from some of our youngest callers.

Well, if all these years doing the show together have taught us anything,

It’s that if you speak a language, you’re going to be curious about it.

It doesn’t matter how old or how young you are.

Hi, my name is Leah, and I’m calling from Argyle, Texas.

Leah!

Hello, Leah!

Welcome to the show!

Hi, thank you!

What can we do for you?

Okay, well, one day my sister was getting in the car and she asked my mom, can I sit in the front seat?

And my mom was like, no, no, no, no, no, absolutely yes.

And I was wondering, why did she go, no, no, no, yes?

Why is she disagreeing with herself, right?

Yeah.

What do you think the answer is?

I think she just meant yes and she wanted my sister to believe her.

Yeah.

Oh, that’s so interesting.

You must be really observant, Leah, because a lot of people hear that,

And it just passes over their heads, and they don’t notice that sometimes we do say yes

And no in the same sentence, but there’s not really disagreement there.

There’s not really a conflict between those two words.

So let’s run through this.

So what was happening was you’re in the car with your mom and your sister,

And your sister asked if she could sit in the front?

Yes.

And then your mom said?

She said, no, no, no, no, absolutely yes.

No, no, no, no, absolutely yes.

Yes. Oh, it’s so perfect. So there’s this thing where we do where we are agreeing with something

At the same time we’re disagreeing with something else. So the no is a way of saying,

I’m disagreeing with you that it might be a problem. I’m saying, no, it doesn’t matter to

Me whether or not you sit in the front or no worries that you sit in the front or no, I don’t

Care if you sit in the front. And then you’re saying, yes, you can sit in the front. Yes,

It’s fine to sit in the front.

Okay.

So there’s the surface thing that you’re saying on the top,

And there’s the underneath thing that you’re saying behind that.

And so your yes and no work with both parts of that.

Okay, okay.

And do you find yourself doing that too, Leah?

Yeah, I do it myself too.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, you know, Leah, I often hear people say, yeah, no.

Yeah, I actually did that this morning.

You did?

What was it?

What were you talking about?

We were actually talking about the podcast.

And then I was like, are you going to face up?

And I’m like, yeah, no.

Oh, there we go.

And you’re doing great.

Perfect.

You sound like you have an interest in language and linguistics, huh?

Yeah.

And how old are you, Leah?

I’m nine.

And you’re in, let’s see, third grade, fourth grade?

Third grade, yeah.

Third grade.

All right.

Well, I got to say, you’re brave to call us.

You did super well, and we were really happy to take your call.

Thank you.

Call us again sometime, all right?

Okay.

You know, Grant, you mentioned that Leah was brave to call us.

So what is the word that sums up feeling brave and scared and excited about something all at the same time?

We heard from one girl, her mom, and a whole class of fifth graders who wanted to know the answer to that question.

It’s Mary Lou, and we’re calling from the quiet corner of Connecticut.

Hi, Mary Lou. What’s the quiet corner of Connecticut?

Yeah, which corner is it?

The quiet corner of Connecticut is the northeast corner of Connecticut.

And what makes it so quiet?

Away from the city.

It’s away from the city. We have beautiful fields and pastures and lots of cows.

Okay. Well, they’re not very quiet, are they?

And so you and the cows had some questions for us?

Well, me, the cows, my daughter, and actually we’re here with her whole fifth grade class.

Oh, nice.

Oh, wow.

So I’m going to ask Nina to ask you what her question is, if that’s okay.

Yeah, sure.

I’m looking for a word for how I feel right now, which is nervous and excited.

You’re looking for a word about how you feel right now, which is nervous and excited.

So it’s a combination of the two things.

You’re eager to talk with us, but you’re also nervous?

Yes.

Okay.

Well, that’s a great question.

And have you thought of some other words and then rejected them?

Some like anxious and stage fright.

Yeah, anxious.

Sprite’s a good one, but it doesn’t feel right.

It doesn’t feel right.

What about butterflies in your stomach?

That’s good.

But we’re wondering if there’s one word that would bring that feeling together,

A word like bittersweet that has two emotions in one word.

Two different elements.

So what you’re talking about is the feeling that you get when you really want to do something,

But you sort of don’t want to do something.

Is that the idea?

Yes.

Yes.

And so worked up isn’t quite right because you’re more than just worked up.

You’re worked up but also cautious.

And anxious really is more negative.

It doesn’t capture the positive part of it, which is that you really want to do it,

But part of you is rebelling.

Exactly.

And so you wouldn’t be happy with the phrase like butterflies in your stomach.

You just want something briefer?

Something briefer.

So when something happens and we have that feeling, we can just say, I’m blank.

We always come up with a blank.

Oh, man, this is a tough one.

It is.

You know what? This is kind of a silly thing, and it’s not one word, but my Aunt Mazo in the hills of North Carolina,

When she was talking about somebody who was both excited and anxious, would say,

He was like a worm in hot ashes.

And I thought that was just her phrase, but I looked it up,

And it’s actually in the Dictionary of American Regional English.

Hot ashes means excited and anxious.

That’s interesting.

So maybe I’m hot-ashed?

You reminded me for some reason of words like Twitter-pated.

I was thinking of that too, actually.

But Twitter-pated is more about frantic and excited.

Yeah, being silly.

Silly, yeah.

Yeah, I think…

And Twitter-pated, being in love, isn’t that from Bambi?

It is in Bambi, yeah.

It’s not only for being in love, but in Bambi it was used that way.

Yeah.

I think what we’re figuring out here is that there’s a hole in our language that you all have pinpointed.

So maybe we need some help coming up with a word.

So what’s the word that you would use, listener, for being excited to do something but also nervous about it?

And Mary Lou and Nina, we will let you know.

Thank you so much.

And hi to the class.

Yeah, hi, class.

Hi.

I have a fifth grader at home.

They sound exactly like him.

Well, you did have a fifth grader at home back when we recorded that call.

That’s right.

But he’s a sixth grader now.

He just turned 12.

I can’t believe it.

He’s giant.

He just passed his mama in height.

Oh, my gosh.

Well, we’re still looking for that good word that sums up the feeling of being excited to do something but still being nervous about it.

So if you think of one, send it along.

And here’s one more thing you can be excited about, the opportunity to make a difference.

For us to keep producing more episodes of the show, we need your help.

Please take a moment right now, go to waywordradio.org,

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