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Impeach
torpeau
Left coast of FL
97 Posts
(Offline)
1
2012/06/23 - 6:41am

In school we were always corrected when we confused being impeached with being run out of office. Several times in recent years I have read or heard the word used improperly by the news media. I look up the word in modern dictionaries, but impeach still seems to mean to to accuse of misconduct, etc.

Guest
2
2012/06/23 - 11:11am

Yeah, I agree.   But I think that confusion has been going on quite a while, not just in the past few years.   I suppose the talking heads of today were, a few decade ago, the children in school who never quite took the lesson.

Guest
3
2012/06/25 - 12:50pm

I also agree. When one "impeaches a witness" all it means is to discredit their testimony. Has nothing to do with being run out of office. When you "impeach a president" (or any elected official) you formally call their suitability for office into question, and that could be a precursor to being run out of office. At least that's the way I understand the meaning.

Guest
4
2012/06/26 - 12:06pm

Just to be unnecessarily picky, I use "discredit" to mean, roughly, "prove unreliable".   "Impeach" means something closer to "impugn", ie to accuse; proof is a separate matter.   So if I impeach a witness, I've accused him of being unreliable; if I discredit the witness, I've convinced others he's unreliable, too.   It's kind of like the distinction between denying charges against me, and refuting them.

torpeau
Left coast of FL
97 Posts
(Offline)
5
2016/04/12 - 2:17pm

Heimhenge said
I also agree. When one "impeaches a witness" all it means is to discredit their testimony. Has nothing to do with being run out of office. When you "impeach a president" (or any elected official) you formally call their suitability for office into question, and that could be a precursor to being run out of office. At least that's the way I understand the meaning.

With the president of Brazil being in the news a lot recently, "impeachment" is also in the news.  Frankly, it appears to used as meaning removing from office based on the context.

Impugning someone's integrity or accusing of wrongdoing is simply not the same thing as ousting from office  -- two very different things.  After all, Pres. Clinton was impeached, but Al Gore did not assume the office of the presidency.

deaconB
744 Posts
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6
2016/04/12 - 4:39pm

Impeach means more than "accuse".  It's pretty close to "indict".

When one impeaches a witness, one presents evidence that the testimony is invalid.  The jury will decide whether to believe him or not.  The prosecutor may decide to bring the witness up on perjury charges.

It's sorta like Trump, Clinton, etc.  They aren't running for the presidency' they are running for the nomination.  Until they get the nomination, they aren't candidates.  So what are thety?  Are they candidates for the candidacy?

The election day is drawing close in Indiana.  One of the women running for Congress says she is wive and mother of seven.  I've never before seen anyone assert before that they were a polygamist, as a credential for high office.

Another candidate, running in a field of four, vote for three, shows rotating bumper stickers for the other three candidates, saying that they've run ten times in the last eight years.  This candidate says he's not a politician, and if you want change, you ought not vote for a politician.  But if you want someone who gets things done, shoud you vote for someone who's never held any public office whatsoever?  It might help it your office holder has an idea what's going on.

But those are slick ads, featuring attractive candidates with big smiles, and the ads are showing in heavy rotation.  I wouldn't bet against either one of them winning.

torpeau
Left coast of FL
97 Posts
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7
2016/04/12 - 7:21pm

deaconB said
Impeach means more than "accuse".  It's pretty close to "indict".

Okay, but my point was that "impeach" seems to mean remove from office when I read articles in The Economist or the WSJ.  In fact, I even e-mailed the author of an article in the WSJ, and he said both meanings were correct.  I responded that those are very different meanings, and that Pres. Clinton was impeached, but he didn't leave office.

deaconB
744 Posts
(Offline)
8
2016/04/13 - 1:54am

You real8za that there is a difference between being indicted and beng convicted, right?  If you are indicted, the grand jury has found there is sufficient evidence to mount a trial against you.  Normally indictment is one-sided, with no defense being presented. 

Similarly, someone who is impeached has had significant evidence presented that their performance is unacceptable, whether it is giving testimony, exgaging in high crimes and misdemeanors, etc.  Impeachment and indictment are not in themselves any indication or shameful behavior, only a sign that "things look bad".  It's what happens next, when both sides are considered, that indicates you're a wretched human being.

When I had my newspapers, years ago, family members teased me that my name appeared in every issue, obviously, and nobody's name should appear n the paper except when they marry or die. (In those pre-HIPPA days, we also listed hospital admission and departures and births, but no matter.)  Decades later, I'm inclined to think the primitive people are right, that taking a photograph is stealing a soul - consider Hollywood! - and if your name appears in a newspaper, even as a staff member or the writer of a "leditor", you should hold your head in shame.  Even reading a newspaper and payng too much attention to the news, is a nad habit nor far removed from gossip.

torpeau
Left coast of FL
97 Posts
(Offline)
9
2016/04/13 - 11:03am

deaconB said
You real8za that there is a difference between being indicted and beng convicted, right?  If you are indicted, the grand jury has found there is sufficient evidence to mount a trial against you.  Normally indictment is one-sided, with no defense being presented. 

My point was that the word is used in such a way in publications like the WSJ and The Economist that most readers would assume that "impeach" means to remove from office.  In fact the author of one of the articles in the WSJ even said that the word had both meanings.

deaconB
744 Posts
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10
2016/04/13 - 12:07pm

You should be aware that the Wall Street Journal is owned by Rupert Murdoch, who also owns Fox News.  The Economist isn't particularly literate, either.

The general public hears that a politician has been indicted, and thinks that he has enough :pull" to avoid the graybar hotel, perhaps even enough that he remains in power.  Mr. Trump insists that he;s never been in bankruptcy, and ignores the fact that companies if his have made filings four ties; some quibble that it wasn't "real" bankruptcy (chapter 7) but rather a chapter 13 reorganization, but they are both part of thet bankruptcy code and administered by the bankruptcy courts.

But if you tell a fan that a baseball player hit a home run when he merely got a single, and he;ll treat you like the idiot you are.  If you don'y knkow what indict and impeach mean, you'll be a crippled writer, and nobody will hire you but Rupert Murdoch, and the National Enquirer.  Mad Magazine has gone far downhill since the late 1950s, but even they won't have you.  "Let's eat Grandma" - little things (like commas and meanings) matter.

torpeau
Left coast of FL
97 Posts
(Offline)
11
2016/04/15 - 7:29pm

deaconB said
You should be aware that the Wall Street Journal is owned by Rupert Murdoch, who also owns Fox News.  The Economist isn't particularly literate, either.

Wherever you go, the BBC, your local paper, France 24, etc., etc. the context indicates that "impeach" is synonymous with "oust."

I see newspaper pictures taken in Brazil where the signs written in Portuguese include the English word "impeachment."  Maybe they have adopted the word into their language and intend it to mean remove from office.  If so, then the English language media should translate it to "oust."

In high school years ago, my English teachers made it quite clear that, just as Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton were impeached and continued as presidents (both acquitted) , there was only the original meaning.

deaconB
744 Posts
(Offline)
12
2016/04/15 - 11:11pm

Wherever you go, the BBC, your local paper, France 24, etc., etc. the context indicates that “impeach” is synonymous with “oust.”

Perhaps where YOU go, that's true. but that's not true around here.  Newspaper editors here all know (as does Google) that Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton were both impeached, and neither one was ousted from office, while Spiro Agnew and Richard Nixon both resigned before they could be impeached.

If we are to start using "impeach" to mean "oust", what word are we going to use for the process deciding there is sufficient evidence to justify a trial to remove someone from office for ,misdeeds?  There are a lot of fools on cable networks that debase our language for venial reasons.  I'd like to bring a class action against such vandalism.

000

torpeau
Left coast of FL
97 Posts
(Offline)
13
2016/04/16 - 4:46am

deaconB said
Perhaps where YOU go, that's true. but that's not true around here.  Newspaper editors here all know (as does Google) that Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton were both impeached, and neither one was ousted from office, while Spiro Agnew and Richard Nixon both resigned before they could be impeached.

While I agree with you, today's NY Times uses this headline above the article: ""Fight to Impeach Brazil’s Leader Tears at Fabric of Daily Life."  Looks like a lost cause.

deaconB
744 Posts
(Offline)
14
2016/04/16 - 3:20pm

You have to successfullyimpeach him before you can start the ouster proceedings.

Guy in a diner points to a sign, tells the waitress he's like to order that.  The waitress reads the sign out loud to make sure she has the order correct, "One egg, fixed the way you like it. 99c."

"So how you yoou like it fixed?"

The customer says, "Grown plucked, and fried."

It takes 21 days to hatch an egg, and a minimum of about 4 months to bring it to frying size.  I wouldn't want to sit on the stool quite that long....  Impeachment if fast and relatively easy, but ousting someone requires that he be allowed to defend himself.  It long and messy - which is why so few are willing to impeach someone.

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