Discussion Forum (Archived)
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Thanks Heimhenge and Glenn:
I think Jack of All trades suggests a competence in all of the trades: that is different than being interested in everything. Renaissance dilettante has a pejorative feel to it. But like multifarious if combined with interests. That's the way I'm going to describe myself until someone calls me on it. I am a person with multifarious interests or on second thought maybe we invent a new noun,"multifarion" I like that batter.
I would agree with Heimhenge that "jack of all trades" suggests merely competence in the many "trades" but not accomplishment or genius in any of them. I think the latter sentiment is more readily conveyed in the phrase "Renaissance man" (or woman), which, I think, implies a da Vinci-type person, who is adept, even genius, in many arts and sciences.
I think multifarion might be the other best that's been suggested, but I would like to add "polymath-ish", just because it's fun to add "-ish" to words.
tunawrites said:
I would agree with Heimhenge that "jack of all trades" suggests merely competence in the many "trades" but not accomplishment or genius in any of them. I think the latter sentiment is more readily conveyed in the phrase "Renaissance man" (or woman), which, I think, implies a da Vinci-type person, who is adept, even genius, in many arts and sciences.
I think multifarion might be the other best that's been suggested, but I would like to add "polymath-ish", just because it's fun to add "-ish" to words.
Heimhenge, I forgot the "master of none" part of that quote. I think it makes the saying pejorative as you suggest. I think polymath-ish may be better in that we don't have to invent a new word, but it feels week-ish to me and it also implies that one has skills in the areas of interest as does "renaissance man". I think having an interest in many disciplines, ideas and points of view is a good thing. I think it would be good to have a word that stands on its own and does not have to justify itself by implying that the person who is interested in many ideas etc also has a skill in using them other than the intelligence to understand them.So I am back to "multifarion"
An interesting entry on the term "jack of all trades," including its etymology, can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_all_trades,_master_of_none
Apparently the meaning has changed since it was first used, and it is indeed now considered pejorative.
Heimhenge said:
An interesting entry on the term "jack of all trades," including its etymology, can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_all_trades,_master_of_none
Apparently the meaning has changed since it was first used, and it is indeed now considered pejorative.
Very interesting. I wouldn't have described this phrase as pejorative. In fact, I don't believe I've ever heard anyone describe someone else using the full expression; rather it's been the person describing himself (usually--always?--a male; also interesting, but the topic of another post!) as a "jack of all trades, master of none". Why would someone describe themselves using a pejorative? Perhaps this is a regional distinction? (I was raised in Southern California, went to school in the Central Coast, and now live in Northern California.)
It might be more of a "relative" meaning aot a "regional" meaning. I have met many people who are, beyond a doubt, jacks of NO trade (master doesn't even come into play here). So if someone describes himself as a "jack of all trades" that just might be a legitimate claim to fame. That's exactly what a competent general handyman needs to be.
I'm reminded of my father-in-law, a definite jack of NO trades, who tried to move the cord to his electric pruner off the top of a shrub, and used the active blade to push the cord. I'll let it to your imagination what happened next.
So as a personal description, yeah, jack of all trades is a good thing to claim.
But as a description of someone else, and appending the "master of none," it can still be used in a pejorative sense.
Heimhenge said:
It might be more of a "relative" meaning aot a "regional" meaning. I have met many people who are, beyond a doubt, jacks of NO trade (master doesn't even come into play here). So if someone describes himself as a "jack of all trades" that just might be a legitimate claim to fame. That's exactly what a competent general handyman needs to be.
I'm reminded of my father-in-law, a definite jack of NO trades, who tried to move the cord to his electric pruner off the top of a shrub, and used the active blade to push the cord. I'll let it to your imagination what happened next.
So as a personal description, yeah, jack of all trades is a good thing to claim.
But as a description of someone else, and appending the "master of none," it can still be used in a pejorative sense.
Relative vs. regional senses and possible pejorative scenarios: makes sense.
Jacks of NO trade, in general: very funny!
Your father-in-law, in particular: !!! I hope he didn't get a big enough jolt to either knock him off his ladder (which this scenario seems like it might have called for), or his heart off its usual rhythm!
tunawrites said:
I would agree with Heimhenge that "jack of all trades" suggests merely competence in the many "trades" but not accomplishment or genius in any of them.
I think that there is nothing "mere" about competence, that we encounter it so seldom that when we do we think it genius. Perhaps it is. In any case, my experience with "jack of all trades" suggests that it is generally meant as praise, sometimes including a bit of wistful envy. It depends on who is using it, in reference to whom, and in what circumstances, but usually the "master of none", if intended, is stated rather than implied.
I'm reminded of my father-in-law, a definite jack of NO trades, who tried to move the cord to his electric pruner off the top of a shrub, and used the active blade to push the cord.
Reminds me of my best friend when I was a young teen, moving the cord of his soldering iron with the hot tip. Never had an I-can't-believe-I-just-did-that moment myself, of course…
Peter
Tromboniator makes a good point. Considering there are many who qualify as "jacks of NO trade," we might be undervaluing the true "jack of all trades." I agree there's nothing pejorative about "competence." In truth, I do think it is becoming less the norm, at least in terms of the average American male. Compared to the handyman skills my father and grandfather had, most guys these days don't have a clue. Sure there are exceptions, but that's just my observation of the general trend.
I had to laugh about the soldering iron story. Had one of those "I-can't-believe-I-did-that" moments myself. I had not thought about this for ages until I read your comment. As kids, we used to put firecrackers into holes in those small one-serving milk cartons so common at schools. The volume of air in the carton amplified the report way beyond what the firecracker itself would do. Made for a satisfying boom. So one day I was trying to get the firecracker into the hole, found the hole too small, and thought (I was maybe 9 years old) that if I lit the wick of the firecracker I could use the flame from the wick to burn and enlarge the hole. So there I was, holding the now sparking wick against the milk carton, trying to enlarge the hole.
Fortunately, the light bulb went on in time. I threw the firecracker at the last second, but it still went off in the air not 10 feet from me. My ear rang for days. Such are the foibles of childhood.
tromboniator said:
I think that there is nothing "mere" about competence, that we encounter it so seldom that when we do we think it genius. Perhaps it is. In any case, my experience with "jack of all trades" suggests that it is generally meant as praise, sometimes including a bit of wistful envy. It depends on who is using it, in reference to whom, and in what circumstances, but usually the "master of none", if intended, is stated rather than implied.
I agree that competence is sometimes hard to find, so the level adjusts itself to accommodate the current level of acceptable performance. However, I hold we posters here on the Discussion Forum to a higher standard than I do the rest of the world, which is why I thought calling competence a "mere" accomplishment was apt. We here are discussing language recreationally, which I believe inherently shows that each of us strives for more than "mere" competence in our endeavors, no?
Also, I agree with you that "jack of all trades" never really carried a pejorative meaning for me, but rather was a note of recognition for a person who had various skills (maybe even to the point that I would agree with your reading of "wistful envy"). But I do think it implies that the person is expert in nothing.
I suppose I was picking nits, because I knew exactly what you meant, but I think that "competence," like "jack of all trades," may have a slightly, or not so slightly, different meaning for each of us. Just to muddy the water a little, I've seen some astonishing jacks of all trades in my time, and I'm not sure I'm a competent(!) judge of their expertise, or lack thereof. I don't think I intend any implication that such a person may be expert in nothing, you might. Certainly, I have no basis for criticizing your assumptions about the term: your experiences with it may be different from mine; but apparently you and I can have a conversation and come away with some mutual understanding! One of the reasons I hesitate to accept your implication is that we rarely get to see the whole person, to know what they may be truly good at. An example that comes to mind at the moment is a friend of mine who is an emergency room doctor, unquestionably an expert; he's also a good sculptor and a superb sketcher and watercolorist; in addition to which, he's a phenomenal tuba player. He has also built much of his own house. Jack of all trades in my book, and expert at more than one. How many of the people he encounters become aware of all his capabilities? How many have I missed? Whew! Must be bedtime.
Peter
I wasn't really disagreeing with you, Peter. My point was that the people who are described as jacks of all trades tend to be experts in none of those. I have been described by others as such a person, and I would agree. I'm certainly curious enough to be a master of something, but my curiosity tends to be fickle. I don't think I have undiagnosed ADHD, or some such thing (I grew up long before that became a common diagnosis); I just find numerous things interesting, but I only have the same 24 hours in every day that everyone else has, and I've yet to devote all my time to be an expert in one of my interests. So, unless I become determined enough to fixate on one thing, I shall always be the "master of none" in the "jack of all trades" saying. But that's just a personal, anecdotal example.
On the other side, I once met U.S. Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy, who is, by virtue of his position, expected to be an expert in federal civil procedure, if not many primary laws (and, nowadays, he is the arbiter of our country's common law by virtue of his position as the "swing" vote in any contentious case). We talked for about twenty minutes, and he did not once mention anything having to do with law. He was reading some recent books on astrophysics and cosmology, and I had actually just re-read Hawking's A Brief History of Time, so we discussed nothing except the physics of the origins of the universe. And it was amazing how well-versed he was in physics. So Mr. Justice Kennedy is one — and I'm sure there are more — who is a "jack of all trades" and a master of whatever he sets his mind to. It is remarkable and comforting that there are such people in the highest levels of power.
Martha Barnette
Grant Barrett
Grant Barrett
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