Just Skylarking (episode #1617)

You’re listening to A Way with Words, the show about language and how we use it. I’m Grant Barrett.

And I’m Martha Barnette. And we heard from a couple of listeners this week about eggs.

Lisa Burkini in Virginia Beach says that when her daughter Zoe was about three, she really loved all kinds of foods, but she especially liked hard-boiled eggs.

And so when little Zoe would ask her mom to make them, she would ask for horrible eggs.

Horrible eggs instead of hard-boiled eggs.

Yes.

Mommy.

Can I have some horrible eggs?

And, of course, Lisa’s family still calls them horrible eggs.

Of course.

You know.

And we also heard from Kristen in Jacksonville Beach, Florida.

She says that her mother is from Cuba, and in Cuban Spanish, if you make a sucking sound with your teeth to express disapproval or disagreement, you’re friando un huevo.

You’re frying an egg.

Yep, exactly, because it sounds like frying an egg.

So friando un huevo or friando un huevo.

You’re frying somebody eggs by making that sound.

Yeah, it’s also known in some of those English-speaking Caribbean countries as chuping.

Chuping.

Yeah, chuping.

You’re sucking your teeth to express disapproval.

It’s used throughout the Caribbean.

Oh, that’s very good.

I love it.

It would be excellent if you called us, 877-929-9673.

I heard that.

It was EX. I’m just telling you.

877-929-9673. words@waywordradio.org.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, my name’s Steve. I had a couple questions for you. I’m from Kokomo, Indiana.

Hi, Steve. Welcome to the show.

Well, my dad, he will be 75 years old this year in September, and I’ll be 40.

And as long as I can remember, I have heard him when he meets a new person.

He will say to this person, do you live around here or ride a bicycle?

And, you know, I’ll be like, I would introduce him to say my friend.

I’ll say, this is my friend Abram.

And he’ll say, you know, he’ll, you know, reach his hand out, shake his hand.

And he’ll say, do you live around here or ride a bicycle?

As I’ve been just listening to the show, I’m new listening.

And I thought, I know exactly what I could ask them.

Do we live around here or do we ride a bicycle?

That’s right.

That’s what you want to know?

And so that or in that sentence, that’s meant to be an exclusive or, not an inclusive or.

It’s an either or, not an and question, right?

Correct.

And I want to know what your friends do or say when he says that to them.

Do you live around here or ride a bicycle?

Most often, they really do not know what to say.

He sounds like a rascal of the first order.

Yeah, well, Steve, what we can tell you about that is that that is just kind of an old fashioned kind of stupid dad joke.

You know, it’s it’s it’s from it’s from your dad’s era.

Versions of it go back at least to college publications in the 1920s.

And it’s the kind of thing that adults might say, particularly to a kid, you know, something that you say to make a little kid do a double take.

You know, do you live around here or do you ride a bicycle?

Or whose daddy are you?

And the kid’s like, what?

Okay.

Or how long is a piece of string?

Right.

There’s several of those statements that are used.

And, like, you know, like another one that he uses was, like, somebody, you know, he’ll be talking to someone.

And somebody will say something kind of, you know, just in meeting maybe the first time.

And he would say, did your mother have any children that lived?

Oh, my goodness.

It’s another thing that’s like, I’ve never heard it anywhere else.

And he also does the same thing, another thing when he answers the phone, which I know about it.

He says, I call him on the phone and he answers and he says, your quarter.

Like, I called him from a pay phone.

Oh, your quarter.

Yeah.

So he just, you know, and he’s the greatest person in the world, not just because he’s my dad.

He’s just great.

And he just has little things like that.

But to live around here, ride a bicycle.

So it’s been around since the 20s.

At least the 20s, yeah.

Yeah, there’s a whole bunch more of these kinds of things.

Is it colder in the winter or in the country?

Do you walk to school or take your lunch?

Right.

Okay.

That’s awesome.

Yeah, well, clearly it’s working for your dad.

Yes, because he’s used it for, I know at least as long as I can remember, probably I would say 35 years.

Like I said, I’m 40.

And it’s a real stumper for some folks because they’re like, well, I do live around here and I have a bicycle, but what do I say?

Steve, thanks for sharing this stuff with us.

I’m sure we’ll get a lot more of these foolish questions to befuddle the listener.

This is a good one.

Do you live around here and ride a bicycle?

Oh, that’s a gem.

I look forward to using it at some point.

I definitely will.

Yeah, well, call us back when you’re 75 and let us know.

I would love to do that.

Okay, it’s a day.

All right, Steve, take care of yourself on the open road.

It’s been a pleasure.

Thank you.

Bye-bye.

All righty.

Bye-bye.

Grant, you got any more of those?

The better question is, do our listeners have any more of those?

877-929-9673.

Email words@waywordradio.org.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, this is Alexis calling from Maryland.

Hey, Alexis, welcome.

What can we do for you?

Oh, I’m so excited to be here.

Okay, so I have a food-related question, which I know is a popular talker.

Yes.

So it’s actually two words, so I hope I’m not stretching, but I’m a pretty religious viewer of the Great British Baking Show, if you’re familiar.

Oh, sure.

Yeah.

And so they use a lot of words.

And, of course, because it’s British, some of the words I’m unfamiliar with as an American English speaker.

The two words in particular that they use quite often are stodgy and claggy.

And as far as I can understand from context clues, I believe they are referring to something related to texture.

But what that texture is is unclear to me.

I can sense that it is a negative feeling, though.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, if Paula Hollywood tells you your cake is stodgy, you’re not happy, right?

No, not at all.

Well, does he ever say anything positive?

That’s my question about Paul Hollywood.

It’s very few and far apart, but on occasion he does.

Right.

And then you walk proudly with your chest out, like strutting.

And if you get a handshake, oh my goodness.

You don’t wash it for days, right?

Absolutely.

So stodgy and claggy.

So everyone probably has heard stodgy before.

We probably think of talking about old men as being stodgy, somebody who’s stuck in their ways.

Does that sound familiar, Alexis?

So that would be, I’ve never heard it outside of the food content.

Oh, you haven’t.

Okay.

Yeah.

No.

I think that’s how I know stodgy.

Martha, is that familiar to you?

It was new to me when I started watching The Baking Show.

I always thought of stodgy as some curmudgeonly person who just was, as you said, set in their ways.

Yeah, and that’s kind of what’s happening here because it’s an ancient word, well, at least 400 years,

That meant back then to stuff, well, the verb to stodge meant to stuff or to cram,

Which over time came to mean to overstuff or to overcram.

And then after a while, it came to mean to work steadily or to trudge, like to trudge through snow or a lot of debris.

And then it came to mean to bog down.

And so I haven’t heard the hosts and the judges on the show use the word,

But I wouldn’t be surprised if when they use stodgy,

They’re talking about the overall baked good being kind of bogged down or overcome by a particular ingredient.

Does that sound right?

Yeah, I think that does make sense.

Like, for example, if a pie is overstuffed and the crust is not getting enough love on the palate, maybe.

Yeah, that was good. Or I was thinking of those one episode I saw where like somebody was a little over fond of the rum in their rum cake.

Yeah, definitely.

And claggy is a superb word that has a very fine pedigree.

And it’s likely from Norse, believe it or not.

And like a lot of the Norse words that are in English, it shows up in Scotland in the north of England, where you can find verb and adjective forms of it.

And it has a lot of meanings, but they all associate with messy or mucky or sticky or clotted or bleary.

And surprisingly, even though claggy sounds a bit like the word clog, it’s probably not related.

Instead, it’s probably related to the word clay, C-L-A-Y.

And it’s probably related to Scandinavian words, meaning sticky mud.

So I really do like the fact that we’ve got this ancient word from Norse of all things.

We’re talking Vikings being used on a modern television show about baking.

How cool is that?

That’s super cool.

And I just, yeah, I love that show and I love your show.

And yeah, thank you for enlightening me on these two words, because as you can imagine, I, you know, when you don’t understand what they’re saying, it can be, you know, quite confusing, especially when you have a feeling it’s something negative.

So now I know if anyone comments about my baking that it’s dodgy or claggy, that is not a good thing.

And I’ve done something wrong.

But I think the negatives on that show, even when the words aren’t immediately comprehensible, even through context.

That’s the joy of that show is it’s so wrapped up in charm and understanding.

And there’s just so much support from the participants and the judges and the host.

And that’s what makes that show work, I think.

Absolutely.

I call it my happy show because if ever I’m feeling sad, I just turn it on and it brightens my mood immediately.

And it’s about food.

All right.

Well, thank you, Alexis, for spending some time with us.

We really appreciate it.

Yeah, we’re sending you off with handshakes.

Yes, we are.

Great question.

Thank you.

I feel it.

And a soggy bottom rum cake.

Bye-bye.

Take care.

Bye.

877-929-9673.

Email words@waywordradio.org.

We had a voicemail from Pat Harkin in Ponte Vedra Beach, Florida, which is outside Jacksonville.

Pat says that in his family, they refer to the city of Miami, Florida as Dad’s Ammy.

That’s because when Pat’s family lived in Miami, Pat’s brother Paul would hear their father use the word Miami.

And as little kids do, he just sort of gave it a different interpretation.

He thought the my was possessive.

He thought the father was talking about his Ammy.

So to this day, the family calls it Dad’s Emmy.

Dad’s Emmy.

Oh, I love it.

I love it.

Share your childhood misunderstandings with us, words@waywordradio.org.

You’re listening to A Way with Words, the show about language and how we use it.

I’m Martha Barnette.

And I’m Grant Barrett.

And we’re joined on the line by our quiz guide, John Chaneski.

Hi, Grant.

Hi, Martha.

Hi, Brian.

What’s up?

What’s happening in the quiz world there?

We’re going to do sort of a combination, I call combining quiz today.

I’m going to give you two clues together, and you’ll give me a single phrase or an idiom answer.

Now, these will take the form blank with the blank.

For example, if I said, a person who behaves toward another in a way that shows romantic interest, and a thought you have about how to do something, that would clue what with the what?

Flirt with the thought?

No, I don’t know. Flirt with the idea.

Flirt with the idea.

Yes, flirt with the idea. Perfect.

Oh, okay.

Great. I like this.

So there’s two ways for me to not get the answer. Nice.

Exactly.

As we say in the puzzle world, there’s also two ways in.

Oh, sure.

I see.

Here are some more. Here we go.

Okay.

Waltzing and tangoing and Betelgeuse and Vega.

Dancing with the stars.

Yes, dancing with the stars.

Okay.

No longer present and Zephyr and Sirocco.

Gone with the Wind.

Yes, Gone with the Wind.

Siraco.

One each now.

It’s good.

He’s strong.

Falls unconscious and pike and mackerel.

Sleeps with the fishes.

Sleeps with the fishes.

Oh, very good.

Okay.

Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes.

It’s a message.

Blank with the blank.

Leave a place and continuous movement of liquid.

Go with the flow.

Go with the flow.

There we go.

Go with the flow.

Yes, very nice.

Obtain and television broadcast.

Get the picture.

No.

Remember with the…

Oh, I see.

This is hard.

Obtain…

Something with…

Obtain and television broadcast.

On with the show.

No, you had the first one right.

Get with the show.

Get with the program.

Get with the program.

Get with the program.

All right.

Nicely done.

Celebrity questions and answers and supernatural bloodsucker.

Stars with the chupacabra.

No.

Oh, interview with the vampire.

Interview with the vampire.

Very nice.

I actually like this one.

It sounds very sweet.

A Lord’s Wife and Source of Light.

Lady with the sun?

Lady with the star?

Lady with the light bulb?

Lady with the lamp?

Yes, Lady with the lamp.

Very nice.

Male person and blueprints.

Man with the plan.

Nice.

Man with the plan, yes.

Here’s the last one.

Turn over and over and hit with the fists.

Roll with the punches.

Roll with the punches, yes.

Very good.

Nice work, you guys.

John, you’re the host with the most.

Oh, that’s what I wanted to hear.

Thank you so much.

Which means you have parasites, and we’ll get those off after the show.

Thanks, John.

All right, calling exterminator.

Bye-bye.

Thanks, guys.

Bye.

You know, quizzes are just some of the things that we do here.

We also answer questions about language.

Give us a call, 877-929-9673.

Email us, words@waywordradio.org.

And find us on Facebook and Twitter.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hi, this is Christy.

I’m calling from Northern Norfolk, Virginia Beach.

Hi, Christy.

Welcome to the show.

What’s on your mind today?

Well, I called about the Virginia invite as what my friends and I started calling this weird phenomenon I guess I moved to Norfolk to do my PhD several years ago and when I got here, you know, everybody was a little different I’m from outside of Philly so between classes I would stand with one of my friends and you know we we had the same taste of music so she asked me one day like oh what did you do in Philly and I was like oh I used to go to a club night and she’s like oh we have one of those here it’s it’s it’s on Tuesday in fact me and my friends are going this week and I was like oh and I’m waiting I’m waiting I’m thinking you know oh are they gonna invite me you know and she doesn’t and so I’m like that’s weird I’m kind of rude you know.

So a couple of weeks later same thing happened she’s like oh yeah yeah my my friends and I you know we’re gonna go to the club again this week doesn’t invite me so finally like after this happens four or five times I said, you know, I think I’m gonna go there myself this week and she says oh good that’s great like I’ve been inviting you for weeks I don’t know why you didn’t come.

You didn’t invite me you never invited me and then the guy I was dating and he’s now my husband you know one weekend I asked him well what do you want to do this week and he’s like oh you know Tommy and I thought we could go play some pool and I’m like oh fine go hang out with Tommy then and he’s like, what, you don’t want to play pool?

He’s like, you didn’t invite me.

So here I am feeling like a crazy person.

And I’m working in the writing center with another one of my friends who was actually in the linguistics program.

And she’s from down here.

I said, look, this is something you guys do down here.

Like, do you do that?

And I explained the whole thing to her.

And she, like, stops.

And I see the wheels turning.

And she goes, oh, yeah, we do that.

That’s weird.

And, like, see, it is weird.

We just started calling it the Virginia invite and I asked my students all the time I’m like hey do you guys do this and they’re like oh yeah we do that’s weird so I don’t know what’s up with that.

Oh my goodness so you moved to Virginia from outside Philly yeah and people tell you that they’re going to go do some fun thing and you’re waiting for the the invitation and it never comes.

No, it’s super awkward silence.

As far as they’re concerned, they have invited you because they mentioned it.

Oh, so they say.

Yeah.

They believe it.

So you being present is as good as, and them mentioning it is as good as an invitation.

Because from their point of view, maybe it would be rude to bring it up.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

So they’re thinking, I wouldn’t have brought it up unless you were invited because that would just be rude.

Yeah.

Okay.

See, I would think it would be rude too.

That’s why I’m waiting for the invite.

Yeah, yeah.

You want the extra step.

Mm—

Yeah.

And so we’ve got a problem here.

Ask your linguist friend about this.

We have a problem here of implicature.

It basically means what was implicit and what was said or done isn’t clear to you.

They think it’s implicit in their statement that you’re invited, and you don’t think it is implicit.

Right.

Yeah.

The other problem we might have is also might be with English is there’s a problem with the way the pronoun we, W-E, works in English.

For example, if they say we’re going to the club, it might not be clear if that we includes you or the person they’re talking to.

It might only mean the speaker and whoever they’re talking about, but not also you.

Some other languages don’t have that problem because their pronoun for we does automatically include the person being spoken to.

Or they may have up to four pronouns for we that include a variety of combinations of people, including or excluding the speaker.

And linguists have studied, you know, the pragmatics of invitations and that little dance that people do.

The least common type of invitation is the unambiguous one.

Do you want to have lunch tomorrow?

But otherwise, you know, there’s a bit of negotiation with an ambiguous invitation.

I don’t know that that practice is exclusive to Virginia, though.

No, I wouldn’t think that it is.

I expect this to be common throughout the English-speaking world and probably other languages.

If we mention this now, people are going to probably report this everywhere.

Because by not specifically asking the question, they are not exposing themselves to the chance that you might say no and reject their proposal.

And this is why we don’t often explicitly ask questions or specifically invite people.

Right.

That’s really funny.

I haven’t thought of it that way.

Maybe we’re just weird where I’m from.

No, Christy, it’s that you’re super cool.

You’re super cool.

And they were afraid you would say no.

Yeah, right.

Exactly.

And, you know, we haven’t even talked about ostensible invitations.

I have friends from Austria who talk about the American invitation.

They ran into people while they were traveling who said, you know, come visit us in Lake Tahoe if you’re ever in town.

And so my Austrian friends showed up on their doorstep and then people were like, what?

What are you doing here?

And they said, you invited us.

We’re here.

Oh, that’s really funny.

But yeah, this kind of thing does happen all the time.

This is why so much of spoken language, so much of it is renegotiation and restatement.

We’re constantly seeking clarity on what was meant and what was said.

Constantly.

It’s really cool.

So was it fun?

Yeah, it was.

Actually, I met my husband there.

So worth it.

Oh, nice.

Yeah.

It worked out.

Yeah, it did.

It did.

Christy, thank you so much for calling us.

Yeah, glad it all worked out.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, me too.

Take care of yourself.

Bye-bye.

Thank you.

Bye.

Well, we are unambiguously inviting you to call us.

The number is 877-929-9673 or send us an email to talk about language.

words@waywordradio.org.

Grant, the other day I was thinking about the word undertaker.

And I had always assumed that undertaker was a word because that was the person who took you underground after death.

But that’s not why it’s called an undertaker. Did you know this?

Oh, yeah.

It turns out that in the early 1600s, the word undertaker was a more general term that applied simply to somebody who undertakes the work of running a business, like an entrepreneur.

So there were mine undertakers who undertook exploring a mind or land undertakers and book publishers might be called undertakers or the producer of a play was the undertaker of that production.

That is, they were all undertaking the risk and responsibility of that job.

Or if your job was to arrange funerals, you were an undertaker of that kind of work.

And then by the late 1600s, that meaning began to narrow.

It’s a great example of linguistic narrowing where the meaning began to narrow and specify somebody who took care of funerals.

Isn’t that amazing?

Yeah, and it makes sense that it would specify there in that field because it requires some kind of euphemizing, right?

Some kind of like, we don’t want to say too plainly what this person is doing.

Right, right.

I’ve just always associated it with, you know, putting a coffin in the ground.

But it was a much more broad term before that.

How about that?

I love it.

We always discover new things, and we would like to discover them with you.

Email us, words@waywordradio.org.

And if you want to contact us some other way, there are lots of ways to do it, including sending us voice notes.

Find out how on our website at waywordradio.org/contact.

Hello.

You have A Way with Words.

Hello, my name is Jay, and I am calling from Barry, Vermont.

Barry, Vermont. Well, welcome, Jay. What can we do for you?

Well, it has struck me that the word conservation and the word conversation are quite similar.

Take either word and reverse the S and the V, and you have the other.

Then, if one is passionate about conservation, one is a conservationist.

If one is passionate about conversation, one is a conversationalist.

And why is there an extra syllable, an A-L, an O in conversationalist?

Why isn’t someone a conversationist?

Oh, Jay.

My sweet summer child.

I’m 64. I’m not a child anymore.

I’m just saying.

You’re asking us to explain the intricacies of English, and I just want to hold you and embrace you before I unleash this hell called English upon you.

Okay.

Because?

I mean, really, that’s the only answer.

There’s a little rhyme or reason to it, really.

And you’ll go bonkers trying to find a pattern because there isn’t one.

Generally, it’s fine when the base word doesn’t have an AL form because then they won’t have the AList forms.

For example, contortion and extortion, they’re just contortionist and extortionist.

You don’t have contortionalist and extortionist because we don’t say contortional and extortional, right?

Typically.

Right.

Occasionally, both exist.

For example, you can be a constitutionalist and a constitutionist, although constitutionalist is more common.

As a matter of fact, when both exist, the logger word tends to be more common.

For example, horticulturist and horticulturalist.

Horticulturalist is more common.

Same with agriculturist and agriculturalist.

Agriculturalist is more common.

Of course, then you have hikes led by both naturalist and naturist, each revealing in their own way, and with different meanings.

That’s a different conversation altogether.

But for many such words, there’s just the AL plus the ist form.

So traditionalist rather than traditionist.

We don’t have traditionist in the language.

And nationalist rather than nationist.

We don’t really have nationist in the language.

So really it’s about whether or not that AL form exists on top of that T-I-O-N root.

By the way, conversationalist and conservationalist are anagrams of each other.

Huh, that had not occurred to me.

Yeah, and they are the longest one-word anagrams I can think of, except for internationalism and interlaminations.

Is that muddy enough for you, Ben?

I can’t. My water was clear five minutes ago, but I can’t see an inch.

You need to let it settle, probably with a cold compress on your forehead.

Well, call us again sometime and we’ll shake up your jar.

All right. Always a pleasure. Thank you very much.

All right. Take care of yourself. Be well.

Thank you.

Thank you.

877-929-9673.

Hello. You have A Way with Words.

Hi. My name is Ben. I’m calling from Chicago.

So I was calling in about a construction of language that I’ve heard before, and I’ve actually worried, or not worried, but wondered about for years.

And the phrase that we’ve all heard, I think, is it’s not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.

And I was wondering if you guys had any information about that.

Yeah, what you’re talking about, what was the one that you used?

It’s not the…

It’s not the size of the dog in the fight.

It’s the size of the fight in the dog.

Size of the fight in the dog. Yeah, where the words in the first half of the sentence are inverted in the second half of the sentence. And that’s a really pithy, memorable way of getting a point across.

And there are a couple of rhetorical terms that we can talk about, one of which is antimetabole. This is an example of antimetabole, which isn’t one of your long lost relatives. It’s spelled A-N-T-I-M-E-T-A-B-O-L-E, anti-metabole.

And that comes from Greek words that mean something like opposite turning about or opposite change. So you gave us one example, Ben, and another one would be when the going gets tough, the tough get going. Or, you know, the famous one from JFK when he said, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.

And antimetabole is a subcategory of a rhetorical device called chiasmus, which is another wonderful Greek-derived word. If you’re using chiasmus, you’re not repeating the words exactly, but you’re taking a couple of phrases and just kind of inverting the second one in terms of the idea.

For example, when Martin Luther King was writing his letter from a Birmingham jail, he wrote, injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. So antimetabole is a subcategory of chiasmus.

So antimetabole inverts the words, and chiasmus in general can just be inverting the syntax or structure. Yeah, yeah, or the ideas. Antimetabolism is sort of like a palindrome made out of words.

And the other cool thing about chiasmus is that it comes from the Greek letter chi, or in Greek chi, C-H-I, like sigma chi, which is shaped like an X. And actually, there’s a whole book about chiasmus called Never Let a Fool Kiss You or a Kiss Fool You.

So the idea about that X is it’s about these phrases kind of crossing in the middle or these clauses crossing in the middle. That’s really cool. I had no idea about any of those words before, and this is very educational. Thank you.

Ben, thank you so much for your call. We really appreciate it, and thanks for listening. Thank you both. This is great. Thank you.

Take care. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye.

It’s not the size of your question that matters. It’s whether or not to call us. 877-929-9673 is toll-free in the United States and Canada. 24 hours a day.

You can also reach us 24 hours a day on social media and email. Find that information on our website at waywordradio.org/contact. This show’s about language seen through the lens of family, history, and culture.

Stick around for more. You’re listening to A Way with Words, the show about language and how we use it. I’m Grant Barrett. And I’m Martha Barnette.

My favorite professors in college were the ones who weren’t just knowledgeable about their subject, but really passionate about it. And I feel like I just audited a whole semester’s class with just such a professor after reading a book called A Swim in a Pond in the Rain, in which four Russians give a master class on writing, reading, and life.

It’s by George Saunders, author of Lincoln and the Bardo and 10th of December, and he’s taught creative writing for more than 20 years at Syracuse University, and he’s taken what he’s taught students and what he’s learned from them and put some of it into this wonderful volume.

He takes you slowly through some great Russian short stories in translation by Chekhov, Turgenev, Tolstoy, and Gogol, and he unravels them. He looks under the hood. He pulls them apart to see how and why they work or when they don’t and how they affect us.

And at the beginning of the book, he tells a story of his own. He was writing a story for the New Yorker, and he was going through this really painful edit. And he was feeling more and more insecure. And so on the phone, he went fishing for a compliment.

He said to his editor, but what do you like about the story? And there was a long pause at the other end. And then his editor said, well, I read a line and I like it enough to read the next. And that was it. That was his entire short story aesthetic.

And Saunders says, it’s perfect. He writes, I’ve taken a lot of comfort in this idea over the years. I don’t need a big theory about fiction to write it. I don’t have to worry about anything but would a reasonable person reading line four get enough of a jolt to go on to line five?

And another thing I love about this book, Grant, is that he’s so unpretentious. He presents these discussions with a warmth and a generosity. And I really appreciate that one of the books he keeps referring to is Dr. Seuss’s Sleep Book, because there’s a line in there where the character says, and that’s why I’m bothering telling you so.

And Saunders is constantly asking that question line by line. Why is this story bothering telling you this? And the implication is, as a writer, you should be asking yourself this. Why am I bothering telling the reader this?

Does this line or that line really advance the story and escalate the action? What parts can you cut out and still have a coherent, effective story? I just love that advice. Why am I bothering telling you so? From Dr. Seuss.

Right. And it’s not just good writing for fiction. It’s also good writing for nonfiction. It works in emails and office memos. It works when you’re speaking aloud before a crowd.

And I also like the point that you brought up about what gets you to line five is line four being worthy of being read. Yes. Because that is sometimes all that’s required. When I read, sometimes the only thing that keeps me reading a book is that it’s well-written.

I don’t necessarily care about the plot or the author or that it’s a subject matter that appeals to me. It’s just, oh, wow, this is a tremendous feat. They have done amazing things with language here.

Martha, this book by George Saunders is called A Swim in a Pond in the Rain, in which four Russians give a master class on writing, reading, and life. We will link to this, of course, from our website.

Martha and I are big readers of different kinds of books, and we’re always interested in what you’re reading. Let us know, words@waywordradio.org, or tell us on the telephone, 877-929-9673.

Hello, you have A Way with Words. Hi, this is Diane, and I’m calling from Frankfort, Kentucky. I grew up with a mom who always was having to wash the laundry or wash the dishes, wash the floors.

She did a lot of washing, and she did so much of it that when I was in second grade and had to take a spelling test, I spelled it incorrectly. I spelled it W-A-R-S-H. I took the test again the next week, and I failed again, and I was blown away when my teacher told me there was no R in the word wash.

So that’s my word for you. I also was listening to the radio recently and heard a song by Luke Bryan, and he’s talking about washing as well. Although in the lyrics, there’s no R in the lyrics. So I’m not sure. He says it though as well. So I’m not the only one who’s heard that word.

No, you’re not. No, not at all. So your mother says warsh with an R. Right. And, you know, I recall her saying warsh, not warsh. I have heard it both ways. Warsh was the way I remember it. Now, it’s been a while, but yeah.

And you all are from Kentucky? No, actually, I grew up in northern Minnesota. She grew up in California. California? And I think her family was very Irish, if that helps. Like Irish by birth or Irish by heritage?

Heritage. Heritage, okay. That’s a little bit confusing. Warsh. We know quite a bit about that. It’s something that’s well-studied by linguists, and it tends to happen where there has been Scots-Irish settlement in the country.

So it’s interesting that you should mention Irish heritage. And there are a lot of people in the United States who do the washing or mention that the creek washed out. And you do hear wash or worst. And sometimes you’ll hear they go to Washington or they grew squarsh in the garden.

And you might also hear them say gorsh instead of gosh. But it’s limited mostly to those words. This is known to linguists as the intrusive R or the excrescent R. And overall, this kind of thing is known to linguists as apenthesis.

Apenthesis. E-P-E-N-T-H-E-S-I-S. Apenthesis.

That’s the insertion of a sound that isn’t normally there.

This particular feature is a dialect feature, and it’s not an indicator of intelligence or education.

You will hear plenty of well-educated, well-spoken, well-respected people of all types who have this intrusive R and say Warsh or Warsh.

So it’s not a measure of education or intelligence.

So let’s just be clear on that.

And we’ve found evidence of it.

It’s been noted as far back as the 1890s.

So it’s been around for a while.

The language map for Warsh, or this R insertion, covers a region known as the Midlands, mostly.

And it goes westward from Washington, D.C., and includes parts of Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Maryland, most of Virginia and Maryland.

And then there’s this long, bulging bubble out through the states that touch the Ohio River Valley and Appalachia and the Ozarks.

And then it goes through Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa, and Nebraska.

If this were a weather storm, we would be in a lot of trouble.

A big wash storm.

I had the strangest experience, Martha, of going home once a few years ago and realizing that my mother says warsh, which I had never noticed before.

But she’s from Missouri.

So it makes perfect sense that she should say warsh.

And I bet she spells it W-A-S-H.

Yeah, she does.

That’s the other thing.

They spell it the regular way.

And they may not even realize that they add that R if you ask them about it.

Right.

Did you ever ask your mother about it, Diane?

You know, I’m sure I did in second grade when I was upset.

But she does have a lot of family that comes from Iowa.

So that would make sense.

That would make sense because that’s how we learn it.

We learn it from the people around us.

So it’s not something you learn accidentally.

You learn it from your neighbors, your family, the people that you live with and near.

Well, I’m just thrilled to be a part of the show.

I’ve been listening a long time.

And my family members are excited to hear that I might be talking about Warsh on the show as well.

So thank you so much for having me.

It’s our pleasure.

Take care.

All right.

Bye-bye now.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

We know there’s a special way of talking where you live.

Tell us about it.

877-929-9673.

In English, if somebody’s being vague or indirect, we might say they’re beating around the bush.

But in German, they have a great expression for this that translates as they’re talking around the hot porridge.

So this means that you’re just avoiding the subject of the hot porridge?

Or you’ve got hot porridge, so you might as well talk about something else because you can’t eat the porridge?

Well, I think that there’s another expression in German that has to do with cats circling a bowl of porridge.

So you’re just kind of waiting for it to cool down before you…

And then the way that cats put out that little paw to test a thing, right?

They put it out like they’re just tentatively testing the porridge to see if it’s ready for them to cause trouble.

Right, with utter precision.

Well, we will try to give you a precise answer.

Call us 877-929-9673.

That’s the magical language line.

You can call us from Canada and the United States.

We have a WhatsApp number, too.

You can find it on our website at waywordradio.org/contact.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Yes.

Hi, this is Sue Carnam, and I’m calling from Kilmarnock, Virginia.

Hi, Sue.

Welcome to the show.

Hello, Sue.

Thank you.

Well, I have two very handsome men in my life, my son and my grandson, and they share a not entirely uncommon hairline, which is a funnel hairline.

It’s sort of triangulated and points toward their eyebrow.

It’s not visible really when they have their hair long in the wintertime, but when it’s summer and they shave their hair down like the boys tend to do, it’s visible.

I’ve heard this sort of trait referred to as having a widow’s peak.

I’m not exactly sure if the term applies to widowers, but neither of my sons are widows.

I wonder if the term goes back to some time when maybe widows may have had to keep their heads covered or, you know, sort of accustomed to keep their hair covered.

And this was showing some sort of, I don’t know, rebellion or whether it has to do with the fact that it peaked somehow, triangulated.

And I’ve always heard this referred to, but I just never knew why.

And I wondered if you could maybe clear it up for me.

Well, yeah, it’s pretty straightforward.

The term widow’s peak goes back to the 17th century, at least.

And it goes back to this bit of folklore, this belief that if your hair is growing to a point on your forehead, then it’s an omen of early widowhood.

Of course, if you’re male, then that doesn’t really apply.

And it may be that this pointy part of the hair suggests a peak of a hood that a widow might be wearing while she’s in mourning.

Oh.

Well, thank you for clearing that up.

There’s an interesting genetic fact.

A widow’s peak is a dominant genetic trait, so it is widely studied by geneticists.

Oh, it is.

Yeah, yeah.

It’s something you can use to track heritage or just kind of a really obvious marker if you’re just trying to prove different facets of heredity.

Oh, interesting.

Well, I’ll have to look more closely at the family photos now and see how that may have passed down.

At those handsome family photos.

Yeah, handsome.

I noticed you said handsome.

I didn’t want the boys to hear me talking about them in vain.

So I appreciate your tolerating my bragging a little bit.

No, that’s perfectly allowed.

We agree.

They must be handsome.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for spending some time with us, Sue.

We appreciate it.

Well, thank you. Okay. Bye-bye.

There’s a term you’ve been using your whole life, and one day it hits you like, why do I say this?

Well, this is the place to sort that out. 877-929-9673 is a toll-free number in the United States and Canada, and that line is open 24 hours a day.

Hello, you have A Way with Words.

Hey there, this is Gary. I’m calling in from Nantucket Island, Massachusetts.

Welcome, Gary. What’s on your mind?

I’m calling in because there’s a word I heard a while back while I was traveling on the Caribbean coast to Costa Rica down in Puerto Viejo.

I met a woman from Australia and she used this word called skylarking.

And I had never heard it before.

And it was such a fun word.

It kind of became one of the words we used when I was hanging out with this group of friends.

And she described it as kind of like when you’re fooling around, you’re like not really doing what you should or just kind of horsing around.

And I wanted to know more about the word and what you all thought of it and where it might have came from.

Oh, that’s lovely. Skylarking, horsing around.

So what are we talking about here?

Like jumping off of rocks into pools of water?

Sure. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s an old word.

It goes back hundreds of years.

The verb to skylark goes back hundreds of years in English, and it’s got some twists and turns in its story.

The one I want to talk about first is the naval connection with skylarking in particular, referring to racing through the rigging of a sailing ship, either as a form of practicing skills for young deckhands or just as a way of passing time if you’re bored.

So they would literally just kind of go hand to hand, foot to foot through the rigging in a particular way.

And this was known as skylarking.

But the lark part of it, of course, refers to the bird because larks in general are often associated with happiness and good times.

Not only because of their exuberant singing, but their zippy up and down flying.

It’s a happy, merry, bright, fresh kind of sound.

And you will find those adjectives used in expressions.

Happy, merry, bright, fresh, or cheerful as a lark, or as a young lark.

So we have these proverbs or idioms comparing people to larks.

And we also talk about rising with the larks, meaning getting up early.

And do you know what the opposite of a night owl is?

I guess maybe a robin.

It’s a lark. It’s a morning lark.

So skylarking contains within this notion of somebody who’s got energy and exuberance.

And is out there to get what’s to be gotten, you know?

Yeah.

So that’s really what’s happening with Skylarking.

It’s just really about grabbing life’s goodness and taking hold of it and going for it.

And so it sounds like that’s what you were doing in Costa Rica.

Yeah, yeah, that’s a really cool history.

I didn’t know that.

I imagine you come across a lot of interesting words when you travel.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah, and it’s ironic.

I live on Nantucket where there’s a big history of ships and whaling and people from around the world coming here on ships.

And, yeah, I’ve always been really into your show and words and their meanings and how they’ve changed over time.

I appreciate your insight on that word.

We appreciate your calling.

Yeah, call us again sometime, Gary.

Take care of yourself.

All right. Will do. Take care.

All right. Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

Regarding our discussion of all the different names for a particular type of sandwich, the sub-sandwich, the po’boy, the hoagie, the zip, several listeners wrote to say that we left out one that was popular in the Northeast.

John Zimmerman from Stanford, Connecticut, said that in southwestern Connecticut, you call that kind of sandwich a wedge.

Oh, yeah.

I’ve got a couple emails about the wedge.

Yeah, we sure did.

That sounds fantastic.

That sounds giant.

Doesn’t it?

Like if there’s a whole wedge of salad on it or a whole wedge of cabbage.

A wedge of lettuce.

We also got an email from Drew Smith about Cuban sandwiches.

I had mentioned Cubans and Miami, but he told me that Cubans and Tampa and Cubans and Key West is a better connection.

And he told me about a book called The Cuban Sandwich, A History in Layers, co-written by Andy Hughes of the University of South Florida, published in 2022, that goes deeply into the history of this fantastic sandwich.

The Cuban Martha is one of my favorite sandwiches, the pickles and the pork and the bread.

And if you get the heat just right, it is the most is the best sandwich ever.

So thank you, Drew, for that extra information on the Cuban.

And if you want to get us talking about food and words, give us a call, 877-929-9673.

Our team includes senior producer Stefanie Levine, engineer and editor Tim Felten, and quiz guide John Chaneski.

We’d love to hear from you, no matter where you are in the world.

Go to waywordradio.org/contact.

Subscribe to the podcast, hear hundreds of past episodes, and get the newsletter at waywordradio.org.

Whenever you have a language story or question, our toll-free line is open in the U.S. and Canada.

1-877-929-9673.

Or send your thoughts to words@waywordradio.org.

A Way with Words is an independent production of Wayword, Inc., a nonprofit supported by listeners and organizations who are changing the way the world talks about language.

Special thanks to Michael Breslauer, Josh Eckels, Clare Grotting, Bruce Rogow, Rick Seidenwurm, and Betty Willis.

Thanks for listening. I’m Martha Barnette.

And I’m Grant Barrett. Until next time, goodbye.

Bye.