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Hello forumers!
I'm editing a translation manuscript in discussion with the author, and she has a question about my use of the word "until". There's a passage in which a woman is wearing a ring covered in diamonds, and drumming her fingers on the table. The language of the book is humorous and informal, and I translated one sentence thus: "She drummed even more energetically on the table until her diamonds were positively flashing." I don't know whether this is a great sentence or not – I'm still polishing the thing – but my question is about my use of the word "until" in this sentence. The author wonders if it's wrong to use "until" here, since the diamonds flash from the moment she begins drumming, and she doesn't stop drumming when they start flashing.
But it seems my vocabulary includes a non-temporal meaning for "until" that means something like "such that" or "to such an extent that" (which would be an exact and very dry-sounding word-for-word translation of the original text), as in an expression like "until the rafters rang". For me "singing until the rafters rang" doesn't mean that it takes a while for the rafters to start ringing. In my brain, it simply means singing so much, or so resonantly, or in such a way that the rafters ring, almost from the moment you begin singing.
Does anyone else have such a meaning in their vocabulary, or know of a dictionary that includes this meaning of the word?
I hope this makes sense.
'And only one for birthday presents, you know. There's glory for you!'
'I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't — till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'
'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'
The problem lies in the fact that it's a manuscript.. The writtem word is a low-bandwidth medium, and the one who is to be the master is the poor reader who can't say WTF. You've interrupted his quiet enjoyment of the document, and sent him into never-never land, wondering how long and hard one has to generate piezoelectric llight from the jewelry on her fingers. If and when he returns his attention to the manuscript is at doubt.
It's possible that the rafters might ring from continued singing. The video of "Galloping Gertie" swinging and twisting tortioning before the Tacoma Narrows bridge collapsed illustrates the effect of simple harmonic action, but the hand gives a soft mount for rings, dampening harmonics before they start. Armies break rank before marching across bridges in order to keep them from collapsing, too. I can't imagine someone drumming their fingers until that happened; the pain or arthritis would be minimal by comparison.
In the reader's mind, until means before or. If someone works until 6, they're out the door at 6:05. My late wife didn't pester me until I have in; she got all wound up and continued, refusing to take "yes" for an answer. The reason you party until the cows come home is that they want to be milked; a full udder is very uncomfortable for them.
She drummed on the table maniacally, her diamonds positively flashing.
I used to be an editor. Authors are often wrong, and it may take great tact to keep them from looking foolish and illiterate. And having been a writer, I hate to see my crafted prose rent asunder by a philistine. In this case, however, you need to pay attention through the looking glass to Lewis Carroll - and be careful not to have a great fall.
I've heard and read "until" used in that sense, but I understand your question about the temporal aspect of that use. It does seem a little fuzzy. Why not just rewrite it to avoid that word entirely? For example:
“She drummed even more energetically on the table until her diamonds were positively flashing.”
becomes:
"She drummed even more energetically on the table, her diamonds increasingly flashing."
"She drummed even more energetically on the table, her diamonds now positively flashing."
"She drummed even more energetically on the table, her diamonds flashing with increased cadence."
Any of those could work, depending on the image you want to paint in the reader's mind. I might actually use a hyphen instead of a comma to join those two clauses. I think a hyphen might work better to imply the "cause and effect" you're trying to express.
I like the way you rewrote that. Nicely done. I do a lot of freelance writing, and whenever I get hung up trying to make a specific word "work" withing the sentence, I've learned that the best solution is to throw out the whole sentence and start over.
I do have to say, though, that your original sentence parsed just fine for me. I knew exactly what you meant, even with the non-standard use of "until." I think that's what deaconB was getting at in his comments regarding Humpty Dumpty ... sometimes you have to "bend" the language a little, and that's perfectly fine, as long as the meaning comes through. Of course, Humpty was being a little extreme in his "bending."
Glad we could help, lolarusa. There's a lot of brain power in this forum. I don't think I've ever seen a question go unanswered.
Heimhenge said
Glad we could help, lolarusa. There's a lot of brain power in this forum. I don't think I've ever seen a question go unanswered.
My late first wife said the reason guys don't ask for directions is that guys never admit ignorance; they give an answer, no matrer what, And she usually said that after I gave an incredibly stupid answer to a stupid question, in a fit of sarcasm. There was a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon in which Calvin faced a really tough question on a physics test. Explain such-and-so, in your own words. Calvin answers the question by making up nonsense words. I love a great loophole, Calvin explains. My younger brother once had a question pn a biology test that asked, "What do you get when you cross a red cow with a white cow?" He wrote "as usual, when you try to cross two females, you get nothing at all." The teacher marked that answer correct.
To answer the question explicitly asked, have I ever seen the word until used that way, the answer is "Yes, I've seen almost everything, but not this one by anyone whose writing I respected."
You can strive to prove bad writing is good, but it's easier to fix it. As Bill Faulkner put it, "In writing, you must kill all your darlings."
Well if dictionary entries are cues of acceptable usage, there are quite a few. Here's one:
3. To the point or extent that: I talked until I was hoarse.
There is also this common usage with goodbyes , where it's not about the action itself, but some unspecified promise :
Parting is such sweet sorrow,
That I shall say good night till it be morrow.
Martha Barnette
Grant Barrett
Grant Barrett
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